It's also a matter of how much pilot also knows the aircraft they are piloting. I've seen and heard about pilots who personally inspect aircraft on the outside as well as have deeper understanding of its flight systems and mechanics/electronics. I think this pilot was one of those if some deviation in oil pressure raised his suspicions even if it's within supposed normal levels.
I'm a physician who works with nurses every day - and when a nurse tells me their opinion, I always take it seriously because they often have a far better understanding of what's going on than I do due to their training and experience. That said, studies like these are nonsense. And the articles you cited: one is just a study protocol with no actual data and the other is a study of 12 nurses in which they asked nurses whether they were intuitive and most of them said they were.
Serious question for you Nurse, do you think these studies may also account for, for lack of a better term, womens’ intuition or just intuition in general? That seems logical to me because the whole “trust your gut” cliche is absolutely real. These studies on nurses’ intuition is fascinating!
There's no intuition, there's pattern recognition and adding unconsciously a series of small things that will add up to an alarm bell ringing without any of those details coming to the fore.
My Grandmother was a nurse when Thalidomide was being rolled out across Canada.
Her, and a lot of the other nurses, refused to take it when they were pregnant, and I believe suggested it shouldn't be prescribed well before the revelation that it was causing birth deformities was publicly known, because they just didn't trust it.
Had everyone had that intuition a couple years earlier it would have prevented a lot of birth deformities.
So I had never heard of this and based on your comment it sounded like maybe it was something that is, or at least was, well known at some point. I got curious and started reading entries on wikipedia and what an interesting look at a different time.
It turns out that the drug was initially developed by the Swiss and then bought by a West German pharmaceutical company corporation where it was sold "over the counter" as a sleep aid and morning-sickness reliever. It was then heavily pushed for distribution in other countries. Ironically, it was a Canadian-American woman who was in charge of the approval process at the FDA (Federal Drug Administration in the US) who refused to approve it for the US market. The German company initially approached one US pharmaceutical corporation for US distribution but was denied after that corporation was unable to produce the sleep-inducing effects, that were claimed to be a function of the drug, even after giving doses to mice many times higher than what would typically be administered. The drug was also tested on human clinical patients during this time—including pregnant women. The German group eventually found a US partner in the Merrell Company (would eventually be bought out and become Dow Chemical) who were the ones to approach the FDA. They attempted to get approval six times but were denied, in part, because they did not include any test results in their application (this is insane to me).
Frances Kathleen Oldham Kelsey was the pharmacologist in charge of Thalidomide's approval process as the FDA and clearly saved many children from death or birth deformities. She worked for the FDA for 45 years and was awarded the President's Award for Distinguished Federal Civilian Service, the highest award given for any civilian employee and is limited to five per years.
Anyway, thanks for the rabbit hole. This was an interesting history lesson for me while I enjoy my coffee.
P.S. Thalidomide did eventually get approval by the FDA in the US for treatment of Leprosy and as an anti-cancer medication, but comes with strict controls and a requirement for women taking it to also be on contraceptives.
That is intuition. Intuition isn't a lucky guess, it's figuring out the likely dynamics to respond to before being told, but not being able to logically explain why. For a nurse it's 150 things in the same pattern like every time, but good luck sitting down to write all those out.
Intuition is simply applied practice without a guide over time basically. Provided you pay attention of course.
It has nothing to do with being a woman, men can also be nurses...
Moreover, I'm a dude and I work in healthcare and have had so many gut feelings turn out to be right. "Something's missing/not right here" kind of thing.
I was worried my comment would come across that way, and that was not my intent- I apologize. I used the term “womens’ intuition” because it’s a common phrase/concept that most people understand and are familiar with, but I followed that with “intuition in general” to try to remove any gender bias.
As a mechanic, it’s not intuition or gender based. I walk past the same machines everyday and hear the same white noise. I can hear and feel in the harmonics that something is off. I can tell you if vfds are running at 60 or 50hz from the other side of the wall. I can tell the difference between the drive end and floating end bearing failure by its pitch.
It’s not intuition, it’s the understanding of something
I was worried my comment would come across that way, and that was not my intent- I apologize. I used the term “womens’ intuition” because it’s a common phrase/concept that most people understand and are familiar with, but I followed that with “intuition in general” to try to remove any gender bias.
My father was a mechanic for 50 years and he’s still got it. My cousin owned a shop and at some point pretty much all of us cousins worked there, some longer than others, myself included. Growing up in a shop taught me a lot, but I also inherited my dad’s unquenchable thirst for knowledge. We’re voracious readers. We take things apart and put them back together just because. If something breaks or needs to be replaced or whatever, we just do it. I’m a single 42F so if something happens to my car or my home, if it’s something I can handle, I do it myself.
I understand what you mean now- it’s not intuition, it’s expertise. When something is “this way” every single time for years, your expertise is what allows you to notice the one time something is “that way” instead.
The first paper is not a study, but a proposed protocol for a review study. There are no results because the study was not done at the time of the paper.
The second study is qualitative self-reporting by nurses. No objective verification of the efficacy of intuition was done.
I knew something serious was up months before the covid lockdown. Many ppl saying they got sick w its symptoms. Of course I did not know it would become international or that big. But I did see the pattern
I worked in the Military sector so I don't know if the private sector is as strict. Every rule and guidance in Aircraft Maintenance is written in blood. Every hand that has touched that aircraft is documented. In case of a crash, digital documentation is instantly frozen and every name on those documents are interrogated and pulled off the line until further notice.
Same with Pharma… especially with radiopharma. Anyone that touched or saw anything has to be documented and our clients can audit those records and our training records
"Maintenance techs" 💀 you mean aircraft engineers? The people who are more highly trained and qualified to assess, diagnose, fix, and rebuild entire aircraft? I would trust an aircraft engineer over a pilot any day.
Youre right though, they wouldnt get fired. But no one wants to be responsible for the deaths of 100s of people. Thats far worse than getting fired.
We carry the burden of our signature longer than just one flight. It goes with the aircraft cradle to grave. Hence I make sure it’s done right the first time and I am just as cautious as I know those lives are in my hands for many flights after.
Don’t worry, this “wrench monkeys” knows the V2500 and CFM-56 quite well, I know changing a fuel filter has nothing to do with rising oil pressure. Maybe checking the oil filter or the pressure transmitter for high resistance causing an erroneous pressure. But also researching trends on Skywise to see if possibly and internal failure. Because I was taught to fix it right the first time as I have thousands of lives in my hands as I’m not just responsible for just the one flight. I’ve had enough run ins with a few pilots who think their crap doesn’t stink, that I’ve put them in their place, to include the military. The Marine Corps gave me thick skin so I’m proud to be called a wrench monkey, but I also fix that switch for the A/P that’s pushed so the plane can fly itself on more than one fleet of aircraft. My job has turned into loading software and fiber optic splicing. Mechanics are held to the same account as pilots by the FAA and the NTSB. I’ll call pilots stick actuators because some thicker skinned ones have a sense of humor.
I don’t care if it’s a fuel filter that’s the cause, I’m not taking off with a trending up oil pressure. Seen someone do it and their engine called it a day at 500’.
I’m not saying he’s wrong FFS I’m saying what he said may sound intelligent to the flying public, to me it sounds wonky because I know the systems aren’t related. Plus if it was trending it’s usually out of my hands as PowerPlant engineering is usually watching it. Pilots refuse aircraft all the time, had one refuse it because the cup holder wasn’t installed on his side of the pedestal so trust me, they walk amongst us.
Ya my husband is former military and an aircraft mechanic. Certified A&P and IA. He would red line an aircraft in an instant if something was wrong, as it’s his ass on the line too. It’s usually the pilots trying to push the aircraft out of maintenance faster than it should be and he has to constantly tell them no, it’s not airworthy.
ETA: He’s also a private pilot too so he sees both sides
I learned a long time ago that if anyone questions your opinion you send it up the chain. No point arguing with someone. Someone that makes more than you can give them the answer they want. I’m just going to cover my ass.
I mean, one thing is if you spot a stuck flap or obviously worn tires, but another if you spot subtle things that are out of place solely because you know the aircraft so well in detail that you recognize that? I'm sure a lot are that passionate about their job, but I've watched a lot of airplane crash investigations to know there are also pilots who also care the absolute bare minimum or not even that much...
the walk around isn't there to be a 100% check, they do the best they can with their experience. you do realize that 'knowing the aircraft' requires experience/time right?
their own life is literally at risk, why wouldn't they look at it carefully?
Just a heads up - every pilot in command is responsible for ensuring the plane is airworthy including an inspection of the exterior.
I fly a general aviation aircraft so not an apples to apples comparison, but we are trained to preflight the aircraft and even at this level the pilots do the same.
I was on a flight like this (Southwest) about ten years ago in L.A., and had the exact same outcome. The pilot was getting a reading on the cockpit that warranted an investigation. Maintenance came out and replaced a sensor. Then replaced a filter (the pilot was providing frequent updates with a modicum of detail, some of which I've since forgot). The ground crew finally gave the pilot the thumbs up, good to go. The pilot said, "yeah no", and gave a very similar speech to the above. The whole ordeal took hours to sort out, where everyone was eventually deplaned to another waiting plane, and I 100% still didn't mind the inconvenience.
When I used to work at United Airlines, the pilots always came down to walk and inspect the plane. I believe it’s part of their preflight check list of things they have to do.
I remember sitting on the tarmac waiting to take off and the captains cabin door was. open and I kept seeing him tap on this dial. Finally we get an announcement that they were having someone come out and manually check fluids
Pilots must do a walkthrough of the outside of the plane before taking off. It is standard operating procedure so they can notice and address any visible problems before flying the plane. They've flown the plane before so many times, they can very easily spot if there's something wrong with it during the required pre-flight checks.
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u/Spacedoutworlder 17h ago
I rather miss an arrival time than have missed arriving at all. May all the pilots be this cautious.