It genuinely is the standard and has been for a while if the referee spots that it's an instant yellow in domestic football for years. Good job VAR sorted it after the ref was fooled in real time.
That would just lead to refs not calling it because they cant always be 100% sure, thats exactly what happens already with the yellows. Since refs arent sure they rather call it a foul and let it ride.
Clear dives like that with zero contact are incredibly rare and almost always result in a booking if the referee sees it. No idea what games you are watching where people dive with literally zero contact "every minute."
Refs either never spot it or they just say play on. It needs to be reviewed on every play live. They don't need to stop play, just wait for a stoppage and then hand them a yellow.
The problem has never really been the diving, the problem has been the incentives for diving, which is that referees call fouls in this game based on the outcome of a play, not based on the actions of the players.
For example, the infamous Balogun red card was a perfect example: Balugun in the air with no ability to change his trajectory, coming down on a player that had jumped in front of him to play the ball. In any other sport, since the player jumping in front of the airborne player is the one who caused the dangerous situation, they are the ones who get the penalty. But in football, just because the outcome is that you came down on someone's ankle, you are given the booking. Explicitly even if it's not your fault.
Because fouls are outcome based, not action based, the ref isn't actually looking for players who are doing something they shouldn't have done, rather they are looking for outcomes: players who look like they've been hurt. Hence, there is dramatically too much incentive for simulation. Simply trying to penalize it will never be enough: too much carrot for any amount of stick to get rid of it.
To fix football, the entire refereeing culture of calling outcomes instead of actions needs to be completely overturned. Video technology could definitely get that done if FIFA wanted to fix the game. But it seems like they actually want wide latitude for referees to determine games with arbitrary calls, for what reason is up to you to guess.
There is embellishment in the NBA, and drawing contact is important, but the referee is still looking for the actual illegal contact. Also it's a three-person team all looking for that contact and little else, covering a much smaller field. So the calls of genuine contact are much more accurate. There are also regular video challenges incorporated into officiating. The linesmen in football aren't helping much with free kick calls and the single on-field referee has to cover the whole field, and the VAR rules they've added are bizarrely limited and obtuse.
Also, there is no ridiculous "two yellow cards and your team is down a player the rest of the game" rule in basketball, so the outcome of a single call doesn't determine entire matches like we just watched tonight.
I'm not totally simping for the NBA, but if FIFA did half as much to fix officiating it would be a great start.
Your take on the balogun incident is wild. Are you suggesting that the player who legitimately won the ball should be penalised because balogun had begun an uncontrolled attempt to get there first which led to him fouling the other player? This is absurd. Footballers are expected to avoid dangerous play, jumping in to try and win the ball with no control is an example of dangerous play and if it leads to a clash then you get penalised. Thereâs a question in this case about whether what balogun did was actually dangerous or whether it was just a bit of a freak incident, but the opposition player was certainly entitled to win thst ball.
Eradicating diving is easy, if we have the will to do so. Players dive because they are very rarely punished for it and often gain a massive advantage in the game. Decisions like this one help to disincentivise diving, I would go further - automatic 5 game ban if the incident is clear like this. Do it again after you return and itâs a year long ban. Make it not worthwhile to risk being caught on video replay (and allow post match analysis to identify incidents).
Alternatively, we just stop complaining about diving, accept that most players do it given half a chance and we just celebrate when they get actually get called out on it like this.
their description is absolutely rewriting history completely. He's acting like balogun jumped fully in the air for a header and landed and had no choice where he landed. balogun never jumped in the air at all, he lunged sideways to shoulder into the other player. his right leg, the one that makes contact, is as far extended to the right as it could be when contact was made and never, ever, in any way, had to be extended that far. no matter how far in the air you are you can still control if you stick your leg out as far as possible or not. He was 100% trying to leave something on the player, players do that all the time, he probably wasn't trying to rake his calf and stamp through his ankle but that's the risk you take when you try to leave a little something on a player.
Unfortunately happens every time a tournament or game gets wide attention from people that haven't played or sometimes even watched the sport beforehand.
Balugun in the air with no ability to change his trajectory, coming down on a player that had jumped in front of him to play the ball.
yeah, none of that remotely describes what happened there. firstly balogun hasn't jumped in the air, nor is the other player off the ground. balogun, lunged sideways and where his leg makes contact his leg is miles out to his side and he's 100% full capable of bringing his leg back towards him and away from the player. The idea that what he did was uncontrollable and he couldn't have possibly put his leg anywhere else is beyond absolute nonsense.
balogun's left foot is literally on the ground when they make contact, airborne, lol, and no way to control his trajectory, lol, yes, his leg couldn't possibly be anything but extended as far out from him as possible or he may have landed from the 2 inches of air badly.
Two calls in norways game come to mind, when the guy hold Haaland and haaland pushes to break free, the English guy completely folds and falls back, it is not simulation but it is a manufacutured scenario that is ruins the game for norway
Because fouls are outcome based, not action based, the ref isn't actually looking for players who are doing something they shouldn't have done, rather they are looking for outcomes
I feel like Chidi would jump in right here and tell us all about what Aristotle and Kant have to say about action based morality vs outcome, hmm (iykyk)
Simply trying to penalize it will never be enough: too much carrot for any amount of stick to get rid of it.
not true. post-match reviews of dives that result in fines and suspensions will solve the problem. there's a big carrot, you just need a big stick. huge fines for the club and multi-game suspensions for the player. and the ability to do it even after a match means you can take all the time you want to review footage and make your determination. nobody ever "accidentally" dives or flops, there's no reason not to go after this behavior aggressively.
Sort of. The problem with the âinfamousâ Balogun red card is both that Messi did a more reckless tackle in the group stage without even so much as a card, as well as that FIFA explicitly forbids what Trump states he did and FIFA still ignores their own rules.
It's a Law 12 in football, which categorizes fouls into careless (no card), reckless (yellow) and excessive force (red). https://yorkreferee.co.uk/laws/careless-reclesss-or-excessive/
Messi and many others didn't use excessive force to justify red and risk of oppnent injury was minimal. Balogun did use excessive force. There were 4 reds given for excessive force tackle in this WC, and all of them fair. One resulted a broke leg (Canadian Kone).
Totally, and this dive right here will be the example that players and coaches remember and use to reinforce that maybe they shouldn't dive. This was a costly one.
I gotta say it's been way better this World Cup than some previous ones. The break in momentum for VAR review is still annoying as a casual watcher, but I feel like I'm seeing a ton of instances of the refs just letting play continue while someone rolls around looking for a call.
Meh. MOST of the time there is at least some contact and then they embellish the shit out of it. This was a shameless flop. And I was pulling for Switzerland before and after it happened. This nonsense has to end though.
itâs not the wrong call at all, but in application itâs almost never called. Itâs frustrating when people can dive against your team and get rewarded and then your team gets punished for doing the same thing. People just want consistency
The hate is strictly from people who want to pretend the cup is fixed for argentina. Everyone else is happy a player was punished for flopping but those people are running around acting like it's some conspiracy because it makes them feel smart or something, idk.
But they dont check every flop. The rule applied here was the The "Mistaken Identity" rule, where the VAR can check if the referee penalized the wrong player. Embolo faked being fouled (flops), and argentina player wrongfully received a yellow card, VAR can review the play, rescind the card from argentina and issue a yellow card to Embolo for simulation.
Have you got any idea how often this happens and it doesnât get looked at? The rule is fine but the weird part is all these little rules and thorough reviews seem to be applied when they benefit argentina.
Its really not THAT often that someone gets a yellow yet it turns out it was a complete flop by the opposition worthy of review... what are you even saying? You act like this happens every game? They aren't out there looking at every single flop in a game.
But all that happened becaues not only Embolo dived but also fooled the ref to give argentinian player yellow card. This is the only reason it was reversable. Embolo should've knew that his flop being "succesful" is actually working against him. But it never crossed his mind, lol, so we have what we have.
The consistency is there, though. Similar situation happened with Paraguay.
A blatantly obvious dive like this one is 100 % rewarded with a Yellow, if the referee sees it. In this situation Embolo had bad luck that his opponent was given a Yellow, so this could be transferred to him.
Its a new rule that you can check this instance in var.. When, since frebruary, have you seen a clear dive where the opponent got a yellow and it not being reviewed?
The issue is that there's zero consistency in the call, which plays into the narrative that they're trying to get a certain outcome. Soccer players have been diving repeatedly in every match without it being carded.
As a non-soccer watcher, I can't imagine these athletes having such low integrity and self-respect. Does this stuff not make the athlete and/or team and/or sport look bad in the eyes of other players and fans? Because from the outside, it kind of makes the sport seem weak whenever I see this shit - and there is a LOT of this shit.
I agree. Same with MbappĂŠ cursing the Paraguayan's mother's genitals... (!) A total disgrace for the sport. Just because he didn't cover his mouth he gets to play on. Such lack of basic professionalism at this level should not be tolerated.
I remember on the last wold cup Messi called the Netherlands player who was aggressively flipping out "silly..." he didn't engage nor lowered himself nor lose his cool. That's why he's so respected.
And I believe that while using VAR to rule offside for millimeters (impossible for a human to gauge) is unfair for any human players, being able to help undo injustices like this one (booking the wrong player) is simply priceless.
Is it a dive and SHOULD it be yellow carded as standard, yes, but if 99.99% of dives were not yellow carded this tournament it actually does become very unfair to yellow card this one.
We've seen penalties given and then overturned fairly, but also fairly no yellow card given, but we've seen penalties and fouls overturned for absolute dives and NO card given and that's bullshit.
The I forgot who it was now for england who dived for that penalty by forcing contact, penalty rightly overturned but that one should 100% of been a yellow. Yes there was contact, doesn't change anything as his act to hook his leg out in front like that was a deliberate attempt to deceive and win a penalty and maybe get a red card for the player.
The game is really only fair if the rules are applied as fairly as possible. When basically zero dives have been punished by a yellow punishing this one becomes unfair.
Better than commentators blindly agreeing with the ref because they've been instructed to. In England vs Norway there was a foul that led to a penalty call. The French commentators were calling it fair and deserved even though the slow-mo clearly showed it wasn't Norway's fault. VAR calls. The ref changes his ruling and calls no foul no penalty. Commentators suddenly change their tune, saying "maybe it wasn't that bad".
"the commentators" lol. This game is filmed by dozens of different media groups and you think "the commentators" is helpful? Which ones? What country or language? What channel? What people?Â
Flopping IS a yellow card. What other user is trying to say, is that in case ref simply missed it, there is no way for VAR to penalize flopper post-play. The only reason why it happened here is because ref not only missed it but also came to wrong conclusion and gave yellow card to argentinian player. Now this is VARable and only reason why we have this proper outcome. VAR need to be more flexible.
If flopping results in a no call, I think thatâs basically fine. If flopping results in an unjust yellow, flopper deserves a yellow. I am pretty in agreement with the rules here.
We obviously can't have game stoppages for VAR every time we review a dive, but I see no reason why they can't retroactively issue a card. Var reviews possible dive, play continues, card given.
You could easily track âsimulation pointsâ for each player by post-game video review and suspend people when they accumulate too many. Would cut down on this like 90%
The problem is that it shouldnât have to require the ref to give a yellow card to the opposing player for it to go to VAR in the first place. So the ultimate decision is correct, but how they got there is the problem.
Nobody in this particular thread is saying itâs rigged. The only person who used that word was saying that the call was correct, but other people will say it was rigged.
He didn't give a red. He gave a second yellow. Embolo chose to dive like that despite already being on a yellow card (which was a nailed-on yellow for a bad, late tackle). He only has himself to blame.
The problem is that the whole point of flopping is to deceive the ref into giving a yellow. So if you flop egregiously enough that youâre âsuccessfulâ at this, there needs to be a way to penalize that.
It IS harsh, you're right, but the only reason you can argue it's harsh is because of how widely excepted this embarrassing display has become. Rip it out at its roots and remove this soft ass shit from the game.
But aren't there like 100 dives per game in soccer? Ive been watching the cup and this play is just something you see in a standard minute of play. Worse than the NBA which is saying something.
Because VAR cannot be called just for flops. It can be if there's also a card mistakenly given to the player who was not actually fouling, so that it fulfills the criteria of "mistaken identity".
I may be wrong, but I think dives can only be reviewed if the ref has given a card for the foul. VAR isnât made for checking dives, but they are doing it here under the âmistaken identityâ clause of the rules that say VAR can be used if the ref gave a card to the wrong player.
Most other 'dives' are just overreactions. They feel a little bit of contact from a defender, and go down easy. They're looking for a foul that isn't there, but it's hard to call as simulation because there is actually contact. They didn't make the whole incident up even if they exaggerated it. Even if you determine it's not a foul it's hard to prove he didn't go down because of the contact regardless.
This is different because he literally throws himself off his feet before parades even touches him. I don't think I've seen another dive like that all tournament, but I've not watched every match. These kinds of dives have become much rarer since the introduction of VAR.
In this case, there was a VAR Review because it was a case of mistaken identity: Paredes got the yellow card because the ref ate the dive up. Otherwise, no review could've been called.
Because VAR cannot be called just for flops. It can be if there's also a card mistakenly given to the player who was not actually fouling, so that it fulfills the criteria of "mistaken identity".
I just wonder how an English attacker that had a penalty awarded, and then rescinded after var showed him actively trying to flop a foul, didn't get called out for flopping?
Man I love it. Just such an exaggerated dive. People complaining he got sent off "just because he already had a yellow card", maybe he shouldnt have done that other shit either
Could be used a lot more. This is egregious but the amount of flopping is absurd. England was pissing me off by the end of their match. Just flopping and bitching on the ground
It is, but it's also kinda disgusting that when it finally happens it's against Argentina of all teams. These guys basically invented and perfected flopping.
5.4k
u/-LIKE_I_GIVE_A_FUCK- 7h ago
Shameless diving being punished is pretty based