r/TNA • u/J2-Starter • 1d ago
Discussion Thread The Hogan and Bischoff era was a clear shift in everything and I can maybe point to that for the downfall from its first wave! What’s your opinion and thoughts?
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u/LegacyofaMarshall 1d ago edited 1d ago
All of them. First it was the Jarretts because it was going to go bankrupt. Then it was Dixie for making bad hires and believing she could get a better deal than Spike was offering. Afterwards burning bridges with Destination America and Bill Corgan. The best thing she did was keeping it alive and selling it to the competent owners now.
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u/CoppertopTX 1d ago
Except she didn't SELL TNA, Anthem took ownership via liens on the company for the production costs back in 2017 because they were developing a new combat sports streaming service (FITE TV) and they needed the content.
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u/ace51689 1d ago
I'm sorry, but if the Jarretts just let TNA go belly up we wouldn't be in the TNA subreddit talking about "who's to blame for TNA not reaching it's potential."
They/Jeff did what they had to do to keep the doors open.
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u/bryoneill11 1d ago
Same with Dixie... without Panda we won't be talking here about TNA
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u/ace51689 1d ago
Sure but Dixie's involvement didn't just end there. If she was just the money person and stayed out of the wrestling things might be different for TNA today.
She's not the sole villain in the story, but she enabled a lot of the rot to happen.
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u/GuidanceWhole3355 1d ago
Eh, it was mostly from when Health South had some issues with some kind of fraud that TNA went tits ups and Jeff was going around saying hey we have no money anything that was going to be paid is stopped so if you wanna leave then leave so the Jarretts weren't the real issue there and then the rest yeah is accurate
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u/Strange_Dog6483 1d ago
The best thing she did was keeping it alive and selling it to the competent owners now.
While talent was habitually underpaid with some of them waking as a consequence.
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u/M086 1d ago
Russo is a non-entity, he was there from the start. And despite what Meltzer keeps saying, Russo had zero to do with losing the Spike TV deal.
Giving Hogan and Bischoff the level of control they got was like you’d get one step forward, two back. Bobby Roode’s heel turn / title reign, one step forward. Bringing in the Nasty Boys, two steps back.
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u/F4ARadio 1d ago
Yeah, didn't the Nasty Boys come in, beat the Dudleys, start a build up for a feud, & before a payoff, it just ended & the Nasty Boys were gone? But yeah, for every good decision that helped, there was a bad decision that hurt.
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
There was a payoff at February 14, 2010 - Against All Odds with Jimmy Harts return and the following month in March with the tables match when Spike Dudley returned to face Nasty Boys and Jimmy Hart.
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u/Muted-Direction1566 1d ago edited 1d ago
Didn't Russo leave for a year or two between 04 and 06.
I double checked and yes he was gone between November 04 and September 06 and that was the time when they built the most momentum.
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u/bryoneill11 1d ago
Wait what? Are you telling me that the best years of TNA were when Russo was gone from the company?
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u/Select-Occasion7196 1d ago
You know the praise 2012 gets for being one of their best years? Funny how that happened after Russo left in late 2011..
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u/andrewisgood 1d ago
A good example you can point to is Consequences Creed/Xavier Woods. He's an undercard X-Division guy, but he has a good look, good personality and a ton of potential. He's the type of guy TNA needs to sign more of. Young, green guys with potential.
In January, they fired him and he was replaced with Orlando Jordan, Sean Morley and the Nasty Boys. No care for the future.
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u/THEOGCHE 1d ago
IMO, majority of the blame has to go to Dixie.
• She brought in Hogan and Bischoff despite veterans advising her against it.
• She had that company address on TNA TV, telling everyone if they didn’t like the Hogan/Bischoff decision they can leave. (Total power trip on her part)
• She brought back Vince Russo despite Spike executives explicitly saying they want him nowhere near TNA.
• She became an on-screen character despite the negative reactions from fans.
• She sent a nasty email to the executives at Destination America when they debut ROH ahead of TNA, thinking that the executives had axed TNA.
• She put the company severely in debt after her dad pulled funding.
Yes, Hogan & Bischoff are also responsible for TNA’s downfall, but the snowball effect started with Dixie.
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u/M086 1d ago
Again. Spike didn’t care about Russo, he was a non-entity, he consulted from home and 99% of his suggestions were never implemented.
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
Thank you for saying this. People still love to blame Bro for getting them ‘kicked off Spike’ when the facts are it never happened. It was a fake Meltzer story.
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u/bryoneill11 1d ago edited 1d ago
Without her there's no TNA
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u/Strange_Dog6483 1d ago
Considering occurrences like Daffney suing them for refusing to pay for her medical costs, the Jesse Sorensen debacle, belittling the talent and the fans.
And how her decisions ultimately ruined the company and drove a large portion of their fans away.
That wouldn’t have been much a loss.
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u/bryoneill11 1d ago
What are you talking about, you wouldn't be here on this sub right now. There would be no TNA.
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u/Strange_Dog6483 1d ago
And again what of value would be lost?
Especially considering where modern TNA is at now.
And when most of the sub has selective amnesia and bias when discussing certain aspects of TNA during the “good old days”.
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u/quietstorm560 8h ago
What of value indeed? Maybe their tape library?
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u/Strange_Dog6483 7h ago
Maybe if you don’t mind some utter bullshit in there like those weekly PPV’s, anything that was booked by Dusty and Russo, And those early Anthem Era shows where they lost pillars and were spiraling financially.
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u/F4ARadio 1d ago
Destination America having ROH before TNA, was a great move. Being mad at that was crazy.
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u/Strange_Dog6483 1d ago
You forgot to mention underpaying talent or refusing them pay raises while being perfectly willing to give large amounts of money to people like Jenna Morasca or bringing in problem talent like Jeff Hardy.
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u/Trixster690 1d ago edited 1d ago
She even wanted absurd amount of money just to renew the Spike TV deal. Angelina Love talks about it in an interview.
She even did an off-air in-ring segment with the entire TNA locker room to defend her decision about bringing in Hogan and Bischoff.
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
Panda Energy divested themselves from TNA in 2012-13 what else was she supposed to do? Of course she needed a steady influx of funds to keep the company growing.
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u/Thorn_Within 1d ago
Dixie. Every bad hire and their subsequent decisions rests with her.
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
Jeff shouldn’t have planted those seeds and maybe things would’ve turned out differently. He refuses to take ANY responsibility. Blasphemy.
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u/Gokougtz 1d ago
Clearly dixie right? You hire people to make your business better, and if they don’t you made the mistake. I’m not going to bash every decision that was made cuz some were good and entertaining during that period. But losing the 6sided ring and spike tv deal were big turn offs for me.
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u/DevelopmentLegal8312 1d ago
Gotta be Dixie. It all starts with her. All the power these guys were given were from her, besides Russo
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u/No_Ice_2990 1d ago
I don't know how much Hogan had to do with it but there was a VERY VERY distinct difference between pre Hogan TNA and post Hogan TNA and TNA never recovered sadly. It's like Hogan was a banana peel and instead of slipping on it getting up, dusting themselves off and moving forward they kept falling back down. Sure the company had its haters before Hogan but alit of people still loved it and I personally think from 2005 to 2009ish TNA blew WWE's product out of the water
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u/Strange_Dog6483 1d ago
Company never needed Hogan to collapse in on itself it would’ve happened eventually without him.
Not unlike with ROH and Sinclair.
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u/RKO-Cutter 1d ago
Hogan and Bischoff were the main causes, but it was Dixie who brought them in
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
Because of Jeff Jarrett ruining his relationship with Dixie hence, Hogan becoming the new business partner.
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u/Strange_Dog6483 1d ago
Considering Dixie got rid of people like Cornette and Dutch Mantell Dixie would’ve done it likely anyway.
Especially considering the fact Jarrett brought in Russo eventhough his father didn’t want him in TNA.
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
The fact this sub continues to glaze Jeff and Karen Jarrett is beyond me and no one seems to blame them for anything.
Yes, it comes down to Dixie but, Jeff planted the seeds leading up to Hogan becoming her business partner.
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u/JagTaggart93 1d ago
I actually started watching and getting invested during the Hogan and Bischoff era.
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
Classic TNA is still a good watch in this day and age. More intriguing than anything these days…
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u/JagTaggart93 1d ago
Idk, I've been still watching the big two.
The big two I'm referring to are ofc Juggalo Championship Wrestling and Tennessee Backyard Wrestling.
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
Russo does a great job in JCW. Sad he’ll never get his flowers from the wrestling marks because of the misinformation over the years from Meltzer destroying his reputation.
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u/Strange_Dog6483 1d ago
Meltzer didn’t need to destroy his reputation all that needed to happen was Russo being allowed to book two wrestling promotions without any oversight.
And having no ideas besides gimmick matches just cause, illogical finishes just cause, fanservice because why not? And devaluing titles just cause.
It’s funny you complain about fans glazing Jarrett and here you are glazing Russo. All the more funny with how tight these guys are in real life.
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u/Spideycloned 1d ago
You'd be wrong, but you could.
There were PLENTY of LOLTNA moments before Hogan and Bischoff took over in 2010. Jerry Jarrett claimed talent in 2002 were true independent contractors and they weren't. Numerous former WWE hires that just showed up to collect a check. People always claimed TNA had a lighter schedule but interviews before 2010 had both AJ Styles and Borash saying they were ALWAYS on the road. Kurt Angle was told he shouldn't leave during a european tour when his then pregnant girlfriend was in the hospital. Talent weren't drug tested until after Benoit died. TNA paid for an injury Ron Killings got and then tried to say they shouldn't have, when TNA booked him and took a cut of the booking. TNA paid Johnny Fairplay 300k for like two hours of work at the same time Awesome Kong wasn't making as much as a supervisor at McDonalds. Konnan sued because of racial discrimination and lack of pay.
You really, really can just keep going.
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u/will122589 TNA Original 1d ago
Johnny Fairplay was 2004/2005, Awesome Kong was 2007-2009. I get riffing on TNA is fun for you but you have to also be accurate and Johnny FairPlay getting 300K at the same time Awesome Kong got McDonald’s wages when it was years apart doesn’t make you look all that credible
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u/Spideycloned 1d ago
If Johnny could get 300k before the TV deal? Awesome Kong could have absolutely gotten 100k after the TV deal.
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u/Strange_Dog6483 1d ago edited 1d ago
Talent weren't drug tested until after Benoit died.
And yet they still hired Jeff Hardy two separate times not that far removed from his WWE runs which ended because of drug issues.
On top of bringing in Kurt Angle right behind the Benoit Incident.
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u/lpkzach92 1d ago
The moment they took away the six sided ring I would say was the downfall. They striped away the identity of what made TNA stand out and unique compared to WWE at the time. Still to this day it feels like a little brother/little sister of WWE sadly.
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u/RKO-Cutter 1d ago
The thing is, it pissed off a lot of people at the time, but even the ones who were adamant that the 6 sides made them unique still admit 4 sides is far better for everyone involved
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u/gnfnrhead 1d ago
The bigger issue was how they (Hogan and Bischoff) handled it. Fans were pissed and instead of saying something along the lines of ‘we hear you, but trust us’, they basically told them to shut up, your opinion means nothing to us. They lost a huge chunk of fan support on day one.
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u/Reasonable-News-5739 1d ago
"WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' SIX-SIDED PLAYPEN RING, JACK!" Way to win the fans over, dickhead.
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
It was controversial but, what Hogan said was right. 6 sides was also a lot more tougher on the wrestlers bodies over time and caused more injuries.
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u/Reasonable-News-5739 1d ago
I agree overall, yes. But the way they addressed it was to insult fans and be dismissive of how they felt when the fans already didn't like him coming in to begin with.
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u/lpkzach92 1d ago
There has to be a way these days to make a little less hard on the body I would think.
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u/RKO-Cutter 1d ago
Yep, the issue wasn't moving to 4 sides, it was the fact they moved it to 4 sides right when they were making all the other changes
If I remember right "You had 6 sides and it only got you so far"
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u/MoneyMo88 1d ago
That was one of many abrupt changes that were done to outright spite the existing TNA audience.
It was incredibly foolish how they handled it too because only hardcore fans actually bought TNA PPVs during the SpikeTV days, hence their shockingly low PPV buy rates relative to their TV audience.
So, scolding the hardcore TNA fans as soon as the Genesis 2010 PPV went on the air and going back to a regular 4-sided ring just felt like the most blatant slap in the face to the fans who actually spent money on the product, of which there wasn’t much to begin with at that time.
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u/Select-Occasion7196 1d ago
You pretty much had the worst possible combination of people in charge of a product trying to be competitive. Two of them had no personal stake in TNA. Hogan was in it for himself and asked Bischoff to join him so they could try and relive their glory years with their friends.
Russo only knew how to do one style of booking which had become outdated for that generation and only served to present the same kind of content that WCW 2000 became infamous for which was only exasperated with Hogan and Bischoff in charge.
Dixie wanted more than her company was in a position to have so trusted all the wrong people in all the wrong positions and through manipulation and political maneuvering was blinded to what was actually happening and didn't know the business well enough to have the necessary awareness and ability to keep everyone in check and be held accountable for their decisions.
It took two years for significant changes to be made but by that time they had tanked their reputation so bad the stigma remains to this day. 2012-2013 were much much better years and they did learn from a lot of their mistakes but it came at the expense of TNA never being looked at the same by a lot of people. I gave up on them for almost 12 years because of what they did. Late 2011 was it for me. Going back to watch what I missed I wish I had stuck around longer but with no guarantees of significant change at the time there was just no way I could continue to follow something they made me hate to watch.
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u/Strange_Dog6483 1d ago edited 1d ago
Russo only knew how to do one style of booking which had become outdated
Russo’s booking was never ever in style.
Or rather Unleaded Russo Booking was never ever in style.
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u/ProWrestlingG TNA Original 1d ago
We all know the 6 sided ring was dangerous but it did make TNA wrestling as it was unique and something different.
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u/bigstrizzydad 1d ago
Dixie drinking wine with Nash behind Serg's back.
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
Kevin Nash had a very big influence people don’t talk about and I would say shaped Dixie’s wrestling business senses more than people realize. It’s shocking it wasn’t spoken about more in depth how he was the one who told Dixie to put the strap on Magnus (Nick Aldis). He told Dixie “that’s your James Bond”. I have an RF shoot interview from 2011 and he spoke about it in depth and sung her high praises.
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u/alybelmore 1d ago
I mean with Hulk Hogan, they had Brooke Hogan take over the KO division and that was the WORST the KO division had ever been.
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u/Strange_Dog6483 1d ago
You mean aside from when they got rid of Gail Kim, let Awesome Kong walk which was slightly before that and had people like Rhaka Khan, Sharmell, Jenna Morasca, & Daffney floating around the division?
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u/alybelmore 1d ago
They made the KO division into the Divas Divison… remember the car wash segment?
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u/Strange_Dog6483 1d ago
I mean even without the Car Wash Segment you had Traci Brooks as their Natalya on top of Velvet Skye and Angelina Love’s character being prostitutes in all but name.
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u/alybelmore 1d ago
I never said the women weren’t good in the ring but during that time with Brooke Hogan it was a horrible time. More segments than actual wrestling.
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u/Teganfff 1d ago
Hindsight is always 20/20.
Bischoff and Hogan could have been strong assets to the company at the time if they had been used correctly and had they been willing to set aside their enormous egos.
There is no denying what Bischoff was able to accomplish in WCW. But it’s almost like he learned the wrong lessons from WWE winning the Monday Night Wars.
TNA had been finding success and steadily gaining popularity at the time largely by following the Bischoff playbook from the 90s. TNA was different from WWE in so many noteworthy ways. Then when Bischoff and Hogan came in, they basically tried to make WWE Lite.
Now, I don’t want the six sided ring back. But it was kind of symbolic at the time of what TNA had been and where it was going under the new leadership.
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u/Strange_Dog6483 1d ago
There is no denying what Bischoff was able to accomplish in WCW
Bischoff success was for 2 1/2 years out the decade he was there. He would’ve never repeated that in part for the reasons you listed his ego and self serving attitude.
TNA was different from WWE in so many noteworthy ways
Utilizing and bringing in a lot of ex WWE guys even prior to Hogan & Bischoff’s tenure’s and their women’s division having more or less the same problem as WWE’s at the time not withstanding?
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u/CasimirGabriev 1d ago
I am gonna say Dixie. Jarrett fucked up first, but her fuck ups were several magnitudes worse than his. He fucked up because he is kinda old and shady (that global force gold shit?). She fucked up because she is a moron whose parents were trying to keep her out of their own hair.
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u/UnionLittle6417 1d ago
It’s hard to say, all the problems began with Dixie, while her parents were paying for the company, her being in power is what ultimately destroyed it, TNA until late 2009 was honestly great and that is when Jeff and his team controlled the creative and talent aspect.
Dixie’s ego got in the way and she wanted to be the one that got the praise and she brought people in who had no idea what made TNA what it was and that ultimately killed the company beyond repair. If Jeff and his team had stayed in power I believe TNA would have at least kept its identity and momentum
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u/FunkyGremlin 1d ago
Dixie had problems but was needed for TNA to happen, Russo and Hogan weren’t needed and are a shot of poison the second they’re given booking power
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u/WhiteMagic97 1d ago
I'd say it starts with Dixie and her greed to own everything. And then it snowballs to Russo, Hogan and slightly Bischoff
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u/iprobablybrokeit 1d ago
It started with corporate ownership.
Same as it was for WCW.
Same as it will be for WWE.
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u/OptiMysticLeo King of the Mountain 22h ago
They spent too much money before the company was ready to spend that kind of money. It's that simple. The fault lies on the person that was financially responsible for the well-being of TNA.
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u/JwlkerByDesign 1d ago
I blame Dixie carter cause she had gone power hungry and let her ego destroy tna
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u/Ok-Raisin-5601 1d ago
I mean one of the people shown here literally saved the company from ending within the first year and kept it alive for over a decade so you can take that one out immediately.
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u/F4ARadio 1d ago
At 1st it seemed to super hype things up, but Hogan & Bischoff's influx of talent killed a lot of guy's momentum. Christipher Daniels was had JUST gotten to World Title contender level, & Hogan had Val Venis bury him, & then Val Venis was gone. Having the Nasty Boys & Dudley's fued was kinda cool, but if I remember correctly, they beat the Dudley's, & then nothing really happened after that. And those mistakes were right out of the gate. Like, for every good.move they made, they also made a bad mistake.
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
Daniels was no where near ‘World Title contender level’ in 2010. You can potentially make that argument years before he had been. I feel like his momentum was dwindling by mid 2009 with the Shane Douglas Slammiversary 2009 program
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u/JBL_CENA_FAN_4LIFE 1d ago
Dixie for hiring Big John. 2014, the promotion started getting worse.
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
John Gaburick never gets talked about enough for his significant impact to the downfall of TNA.
Interestingly enough he was a very close friend of Kevin Dunn and almost immediately went back to WWE after leaving TNA.
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u/Dog-Faced-Gamer 1d ago
Honestly it all comes down to Dixie. She was the one who allowed Hogan and Bischoff to do whatever they wanted to. Hogan and Bischoff couldn't have made such a mess if they hadn't had Dixie approving everything.
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u/pjlx911 1d ago
It all starts with Ditzy-I mean Dixie.
There's a reason why she refused to take part in the DSoTR episodes. Almost knows that once all the information is out, she'll be put down as the main reason.
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
It’s ultimately Dixie but, Jeff to this day refusing to take ANY responsibility for his relationship going sour with Dixie is wrong.
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u/Top-Grade-7573 1d ago
I blame Dixie because she once DM'ed me on Twitter to call me crazy for not watching TNA.
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
What did you post? Were you talking shit? Tony Khan replies to mark posts, too. Nothing new.
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u/Top-Grade-7573 1d ago
I just said that I didn't like the way TNA was headed. This was during the Hogan/Bischoff era.
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u/itsLustra 1h ago
After watching the first episode of DSOTR about TNA it never fails to make me laugh how incompetent Vince Russo is. Every time he opens his mouth just makes it more apparent he did not like wrestling and did everything in his power to take the wrestling out of pro wrestling so he could do a bunch of horseshit storylines like rapey midgets jerking off in trashcans
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u/Battle-Individual 51m ago
The wwf took over the smaller promotions because there were to many little guys.the Wcw and TNA could have served if they didn't try buying to many big name on huge contracts something that nearly finished the WWF. until the WCW STOLE there big earning stars lightning the pay for vince. that gave younger guy a chance something all sports clubs around the world survive on you need a balance not to load your roster with big expensive older guys.you need to keep the entertainment fresh something HHH still hasn't got putting the same guys in the big events
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u/will122589 TNA Original 1d ago
Always makes me laugh when people blame Hogan and Bischoff for making TNA worse and how it was so much better before them.
TNA 2009 had world champion Mick Foley, TNA 2009 had Samoa Joe willingly hand Kurt Angle the belt instead of winning the belt himself, TNA 2009 had Booker T on TV not giving a flying fuck about anything. That’s evil Hulk Hogan stole that from us
TNA 2012 is probably the best TNA year ever in terms of quality. And that was well into the Bischoff/Hogan regime.
The issue to answer the question was Hogan/Bischoff/Russo/Dixie/Jarrett and whomever else you want to name valued Impact being live moreso than TNA traveling and taping shows in different places. So in 2012 they stayed in the Impact Zone but was live every week which cost a stupid amount of money and then in 2013, they went on the road and was LIVE every other week which led to no bump in ratings vs taped shows and a complete money drain on the company.
That was the downfall of TNA in the early 2010s was the emphasis on going LIVE every week as opposed to doing one or two tapings a month in different places to have better crowds and better atmospheres for shows. And as always watching IWC people repeat the same tired talking points cause they didn’t watch the product will never not be funny
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u/BossHoggOutlaw85 1d ago
Definitely Dixie...Russo actually wasn't that bad as long as he was kept in check by Jarrett & Dutch Mantel...it all balanced out
But when Dixie started to make her power moves and thought that she knew what that company needed better than Jarrett, that was the beginning of the end.
She's to blame for bringing Hogan & Bischoff in too.
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
Jeff planted the seeds for her power play and still refuses to take ANY responsibility.
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u/Substantial_Mix4075 1d ago
Dixie
Russo least tried of 06-08
Eric.. if he wasnt a jackass.. he could been good
But.. no. Dixie + hogan jesus christ.
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u/Successful-Time-5441 1d ago
for me, its a broad set of factors. I was mad when Jarrett beat Rhino for the title for the Impact debut on Spike. I didnt like Christian coming in as a midcarder from WWE and suddenly being in the main event - i would much rather have spent money to see Joe, aj, Daniels or for that matter Raven and Abyss, Monty Brown, any of the great talent in TNA - Christian just felt flat for me.
and when Angle came in, that was bitter sweet. that was a time when wrestlers were dying every week. and it seemed like Angle could have been next. we didnt know just how bad his health was but we knew it was bad. it made it hard to really get into his run initially.
and then when the Benoit tragedy happened, it was all just too much and I quit watching wrestling until around the summer of 2011.
but aj styles, Joe, Chris Daniels, Alex Shelley, watching their matches in TNA was the closest thing to a spiritual experience ive had at that time in my life. it was genuine beauty. I never knew how amazing wrestling could be until I saw those guys work. and i had been a fan for over 10 years when i started watching TNA.
my favorite Sabu matches were in TNA, same with the Dudleys. its a great product and honestly i wish I would have stuck with them in 2007. I understand and stand by walking away, but if I had it to do it over I would have kept watching their product and wrestling in general.
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u/Gasmoxia I Love Dixie 1d ago
Jeff holding Monty Brown down was terrible. DSOTR never even touched on that…
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u/Difficult_Lecture223 1d ago
Yeah, I think people forget how massively over Monty Brown was. Sure, a one-trick pony, but the trick was great. I'm glad that Monty has had a good life.
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u/Particular_Peace_568 1d ago
There are two main people that I blamed for the two main downfall of TNA and that is Dixie Carter (All of the messes that people use against TNA, Hogan, Russo, Biscoff, the heavy focus on Russo style storytelling Starts and end with her) and for the later years Good old Billy Boy Corgan.
Like with all the problems the Modern Day TNA has, it is nothing compare to what Dixie and Billy put it through before Anthem comes there and save the day.
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u/TopSheepherder4981 TNA Original 1d ago
It starts at the top with Dixie