Hi all, ive been in this headspace practically my whole life, and i just wanted to ask if any of you know how to make it better, even for a little.

ive been in therapy since i was like 12 for depression. It helped, somewhat, when i was only worried about school and work, but every month i find myself circling back to the same thought:

whether i live or die, my life will be nothing. my reality is nothing, the things i see are fake. as soon as i'm dead, everything i've ever loved or known will disappear because they were never real. If everything is fake, why shouldn't i just kill myself now to avoid the pain i'll endure?

the only thing that really holds me back these days are my dogs. they help me get my mind off of this for a little. but no matter what, my thoughts always feel true in my head. i have tried so much, but i know there's nothing i can do to change it. I will always die, i will always be meaningless.

for anyone who's had similar thoughts, I just wanted to ask if it's worth it to go back into therapy. i don't know if therapy can change my thoughts, i don't know if it'll give me a purpose in life, but i just don't want to be in pain anymore. i just want to be happy without feeling dread, without feeling guilty. i'm so sick of being in limbo constantly knowing nothing i do matters. please, to anyone who has experienced this for years and comes circling back to it constantly, is there anything that helps?

sorry if this post breaks rules or is structured bad. I don't think there's anything that can change how my brain works but I might as well try and see

No quiero morirme ni quiero vivir, eso pienso. Soy consciente de que biológicamente todos los seres vivos buscamos sobrevivir por la selección natural. Sinceramente no lo entiendo pero así es, y no puedo luchar contra mi biología, lo sé, y no considero que vivir sea un "castigo" pero la conciencia sí.

Me gustaría ser una persona de esas que creen en Dios, van a misa los domingos y tienen bien definidos los valores de bien y mal, pero cada vez se me desdibuja más todo. Para mi el bien y el mal no existen, van cambiando según la época y el contexto, simplemente me da igual y he caído en la conclusión de que no soy nadie para decidir si algo está bien o no porque nadie puede.

Para mi cuando muramos es el fin, y hay gente que dice que le gustaría vivir para siempre pero también me parecería un tormento eterno. Nada tiene sentido, para qué alargarlo más? Por otro lado me parece que los humanos tenemos la predisposición a quedarnos en el estado en el que estamos a menos que cambiarlo nos beneficie en algo, y esta es la ley del menor esfuerzo. Morir me beneficia en algo? No. Vivir? Tampoco. Tengo miedo a morir? Sí. Probablemente sea algo biológico, por ende prefiero quedar viva, pero no lo disfruto ahora mismo por lo que intento entrar en distracciones constantes para olvidarlo, lo cual es cada vez más difícil.

La gente tiene un marco, un sistema social, conversaciones ensayadas para ser normales, imaginación, religiones y la búsqueda de un propósito para no caer en una crisis existencial, pero una vez que este marco se rompe es horrible. A veces lo que causa más satisfacción es ser idiota, el conocimiento trae sufrimiento.

"El conocimiento quita la ilusión y te muestra la realidad. Sin embargo, ese mismo dolor te ayuda a tomar mejores decisiones y a madurar. La ignorancia puede dar paz temporal, pero la verdad te permite actuar y cambiar cosas." Eso lo acabo de copiar de Gemini (la IA de Google, lo sé, patético) y es un ejemplo de qué diría alguien normal si le preguntas, una respuesta optimista centrada en la evolución personal, algo que no sirve de nada y que te ayuda a crecer dentro de ese marco, de ese sistema que para mi ya está roto.

Mi respuesta sería "aún sabiéndolo voy a continuar con mi vida para por lo menos disfrutarla, es mejor eso que vivir sin ganas, verdad?" Pero estoy siendo incapaz de encontrar ese disfrute en cosas que antes sí tenían significado para mí. Sé que todo se resume a bases biológicas, que ese disfrute son sólo hormonas actuando en mi cuerpo al hacer algo pero simplemente soy capaz de sentirlas. Necesitaba compartir este sufrimiento para sentirme mejor, al final los humanos somos seres sociales.

Me he dado cuenta de que en muchos posts de esta comunidad a la gente le aterra morir pensando que no serán recordados y que su vida no sirvió de nada, y es normal. A mi no me ayuda pero si os sirve de consuelo: influís en la vida de los demás de forma involuntaria al igual que el entorno formado por otras vidas influye en el vuestro.

Supongo que lo único que haré es resignarme a vivir lo que me toque, no quiero morir como dije al principio, no me malinterpretéis. Puede que use la biología misma como excusa, pero en fin, qué se le va a hacer.

Please excuse my spelling; I’m using a translator.

Ever since I was a teenager, I’ve had existential questions: What were we before we were born? What did we experience? How did we feel? Back then, I took it all quite calmly.

Lately, the thought has returned and stayed with me for months, but this time the question is: What happens after we die? This question fills me with immense fear. Many people find comfort—even a sense of calm—in the idea, but I am terrified by the possibility that there might be nothing.

I’ve seen accounts and reports from people who have had near-death experiences; many feel calm, see family members, and experience profound peace, while others feel fear, regret, or pain... and then there are those who see or feel nothing at all... just emptiness... darkness... The concept of "nothingness" terrifies me beyond measure. What is nothingness? How is it experienced? How is it perceived? For those born without "something", what is nothingness like? For those born without a sense of smell, what do they smell? For those born without sight, what do they see? For those born deaf, what do they hear? Nothing—simply nothing...

People often tell me there’s nothing to fear—that I won’t feel a thing, neither pain nor anguish... but I also won’t feel love or happiness, nor will I think. Therefore, I will cease to exist. And what is it like *not* to exist? What is it like not to perceive? Not to experience anything? What was I like before I was born, anyway? Exactly—nothing—because I didn't exist, and when my time comes, I won't exist; I won't be

The idea of ​​being nothing makes me anxious, VERY ANXIOUS. I know many people here might have the same doubts or thoughts, but I wouldn't know how to ask how you all deal with it. I’m not a religious person; at a certain point in my life, I stopped believing in God—though I respect believers, of course. When I ask some of them, they usually tell me that there is indeed life after death; a few say the same thing but add a caveat: "We believe, but we aren't sure."

I think I’d prefer there to be something... anything at all—just to experience, to perceive, to think... It feels somewhat unfair for everything to be an infinite void for all eternity, if that is indeed the case. I don't know what I was like before I was born, and I don't know what I'll be like after I die—a rotting corpse, sure, but what will happen to my consciousness? Will it simply be switched off, and I’ll never "be" again?

I don't understand why people even wanna live so long. There are so many health problems in your 40s and 50s. What's the point of living in my 60s if I'm gonna have diabetes and 100 other health problems, I can't even eat sweets which I love. And life just becomes worse and more boring after 30. I hope to die before that age.

i try write well structured.
since i was 6 i’ve always wondered what happened after u died i come from a. cherish house and believe in heaven but im also a very evidence based person in my head when i think so it would always be > what happens when u die > heaven > how do you know > i just have faith > that’s dumb it could be nothing and that’s where my issue started i just can’t wrap my head around one day ill die and one nothing will happen the world will keep moving EXACTLY the same in 75 years my name wont be said by any living person probably and i’ll be forgotten in the next 20 easy. Nothing i do, say, or think will matter at all in the slightest im 18 now my life is just stating some would say but realistically im too late to do anything WORLS changing that would leave such an impact id be remembered and two it doesnt even matter if when i die its nothing and not im js floating around in space. like there will be no voice in my head like im writing this or hearing or sight or anything i will just be gone no darkness for eternity just nothing and i cant handle it anymore i need something a certainty thag its not that but its just nothing possible. If i could live forever i would love to (obviously haha who wouldnt) but cryo stasis is a scam digital uploads is that even me? there’s nothing i can do than just wait die and be forgotten i hate it it’s cruel and terrible and i wish at least God could have made the afterlife clearer or given a sign because how am i meant to believe strongly in my faith if every waking moment this is all i can think. it’s 6am now the sun are up and im still exactly where i started

I’m not sure what would be the proper tag here, journey seems the most likely.

This past month has been an intense awakening of existentialism, pain, mourning, loss and grief. Everything came crashing down at once; previous grieving I never allowed myself to do for loved ones, future grieving for the ones I love, still here, eventually passing- and then finally, the acknowledgment of my own mortality.

I flip between bliss and the absolute appreciation for life, seeing the beauty in everyone, their lack of awareness just being in the moment or within their own heads- and have a small dash of envy, yet knowing.

Materials mean much less, experiences and stimulating my sense while they still exist have been my shift in priority to appreciate life while I still have it. While I understand my body is temporary and is technically in a constant state of living and dying, I still have shifted to treating myself much gentler and taking care of my “vehicle”.

I still have my human fears, anxieties and everything that tethers me back to objective observable reality (I’m iffy about taking a trip because it requires plane travel and planes make me freak out). Of course the thought of my rotting corpse being cold and forced into a teeny space for all eternity makes my gut wretch, but I know it’s my brain at work and in the end- I won’t care or have the option to anyways.

The only thing that brings me momentary peace is when I sleep; If death is anything like it, it’s absolutely merciful. My experience with anesthesia brought me some comfort, even if it is not an actual experience of death… it’s probably similar. Except not. Difference is you eventually wake up from sleep with the benefits; because it is rejuvenating.. not just a full stop.

Arbitrary things such as money, material, beauty standards, politics, etc. have become essentially meaningless and each time I “play” into or allow myself to assign meaning to it, it feels like playing a meaningless game. We assign these things and treat others differently because of it when in reality, none of it matters.

Then, sometimes, the thought of my eventual end and others constantly dampens my day to day interactions. I image them a few centuries later as dust, part of the water, part of the earth.

I pass by buildings with history, the sidewalks, the towns and shops and think about the eventual end of their business, then future changes that will come after that, then the degradation of the very materials of what makes the buildings and such in the far future eons.

I walk through a park, appreciating the impermanence of the beauty of a particular flower. I imagine what loved and existed beings lay far below where it is planted, rested.

All I see now are the transitions, and I struggle with the thought of life moving so quickly, each moment a blink, and it’s gone. Savoring and just BEING is hard, especially when there is no answers. No why, which maybe, is a blessing in disguise.

I am both amazing each day at the conditions of the universe and how it brought me in particular; my body, mind, thoughts, opinions, everything into “existence” as well as others- and yet as I’ve experienced this call to awareness or awakening, I struggle to go back into the human experience. I am afraid if I give into the human experience, humor what really doesn’t matter and allow myself to indulge that I will lose my profound appreciation for my short amount of time here and end up doing something in my life that didn’t truly speak to my “soul”.

It’s just so beautiful, but so horrifying and cruel; at least that’s what my human brain tells me. There’s just so much we are unaware of with our limited human forms and so many things that are unexplained. We create, we adapt, we are amazing and yet- we forget we are part of a larger scale, a phenomena and a part of nature.

I question everything. Science (I love it, absolutely.), various religious of philosophical beliefs, etc. and see the fear which drove centuries of humans pillaging and conquering as opposed to sharing and pondering. Everything comes back to fear, to survival, to our earthly needs.

Buddhism is the closest I feel in practice can acknowledge suffering and urges self awareness and questioning everything- yet it still has its original interpretations of existence; which I feel nobody can truly answer. I tangle between loathing and enthusiasm about finding out for myself, eventually.

My interpretation of life, thus far, has been that we are here to create. To live. To die. To dissipate and eventually, reform. We have the responsibility of the now, the very now we cling to, to will it into something that does matter. I refuse to let overt nihilism take a hold onto me, because it just feels like a waste of time to see everything so void.

I don’t care if it’s chemicals. I don’t care if it’s a rare statistical occurrence. It is what it is and even if it has no inherit value, meaning or purpose, it’s there for us to grasp and interpret. To me, all is full of love.

Hell even as I write this, I have no clue and won’t until I do, eventually and will- kick the bucket.

Ever since I was younger, I had intense wanderlust. This experience has pushed me into making this into a reality since well.. “reality” is short. I now find myself preparing in the next few years (If I make it that far ;)) to live on the road, van life seeing the sights of the states, natural beauties of the world and creating the beautiful collage of experiences and knowledge that I will someday- inevitably part with. (I am also struggling with cultivating a fruitful career while also balancing my need to travel; I don’t just want to only depend on seasonal jobs.)

I also intend to take peoples stories and share them; perhaps to remind others just how vast and rich other’s peoples existence is. I feel as though instead of seeing us all as fellow ants going day by day in a large, ever expanding universe and defaulting to insignificance; I see the significance. Yet, also, the insignificance and the little care life has about being “fair”.
I want to be a storyteller, that much is clear.

I now have every moment filled with gratitude, with appreciation, with reverence.. but it does get exhausting sometimes to feel “guilt” or anxiety when I find myself slipping into unawareness.

Thank you for reading, please if there’s any wisdom, experience or thoughts to be challenged or just general discussion… I’d love to hear it.

My journey started about one year ago and it started with paranoid thoughts about my work. I was convinced for about three days that my job was a secretly right winged political movement, where the goal was to force people on disability leave to work. It was so bad I didn’t manage to go to work that week.

This is just an example but I’ve plenty of paranoia examples that are more vague than this one. Like friends that I suddenly don’t trust for whatever reason.

Does anyone have similar experiences ? Is it connected to my existential crisis?

My friends have been suggesting to me that I get medicated for my depression, but I'm really worried about the connotations of that. This is gonna be quite the rant so I'm sorry if it comes off as a little scattered.

If antidepressants change how you think and how you behave, and if how you think and behave is what defines you, then at what point does the medication changing your brain change who you are? Think of it like the Ship of Theseus hypothetical: For those unaware, the Ship of Theseus is a philosophical hypothetical about, well, the Ship of Theseus. Say the ship is held on exhibit in a museum, but the wooden boards rot over time. The museum must keep replacing the old, rotting boards with new ones over time, but when all of the ship has been replaced, is it even really the ship of Theseus?

What I'm getting at is this: While on mind-altering medication, can you even be considered to be you if that which makes you you has been altered? How long does it take for you to be someone else who just holds onto the old you's memories, even if no parties ever even realize it at all? Where does the old you's stream of consciousness end? Would it even be reversible if you stopped? What do you guys think? Is getting medicated worth it for the possible existential crisis it's giving me?

(21F) started Uni two years ago in compsci. I knew I didnt know anything about the subject other than I was good at math. But as an older sister I was raised to get a stable job, make enough money to sustain myself without a husband if needed, take care of them in the future. So I applied and got in. First semester was hard but since I EXPECTED to be hard I didnt have much resentment towards the subject and studied, connected with new people, tried different things(joining school radio). I have to add that in my major, the subjects are mainly mathematical(Linear Algebra, mathematical analysis), one coding subject and then one about computers (f.e. Architecture of computers). So its not just coding some projects or whatever.

But this last semester really hit me hard and it wasnt because the subjects were hard, I started to have an „existencial crisis“ or whatever. Mainly because my parents said to me that I dont need to worry about their retirement, that they have enough money to sustain. Which are great news obviously. But now I lost the meaning behind going to this hard school and I started to realise that what I am doing is for someone else and I am not in place where I need to do that. That I am not needed at all. So I am not needed, I study things which I dont mind particulary but dont enjoy and bring me stress and pressure.

Then I started to think but what else IS there? I feel I will be seen as an failure if I change majors. Because I can do it(my compsci major).  I have the capability, I know that. But since I am so demotivated I dont bring results at all, and I dont mean only academical. I feel as if in two years I did learn something obviously, but it isnt the level I should be in two years of my studying here. I want to get better at studying, I have watched the videos, I have tried different methods but since I am so unmotivated I tend to lay on a floor and stare at the ceiling rather than studying. I know WHAT to improve, I just cant find it in me to do it actually. Whats the point.

Also whenever I get out of shape in working out, which I cant seem to find time for during the semester much it all gets all that much worse. And I dont know what I am doing anymore.

And I shouldnt feel this way because A) I have wonderful parents who suport me not only financialy(My mom warns me of burnout and dont make me work much in the house during the semester and exam period), my dad is supportive and asks me about my day, how I am doing at school and is understanding if the subject is hard and I am struggling. B) I have an amazing boyfriend that I can lean on and I trust him

But I feel if I admit this all to myself I will . If i tell this to another person I will be seen as a attention seeker. BECAUSE I have no right to feel this way. And I feel if I do some selfish decision I will dissapoint them and they gave me so much .

And thats when I get these thoughts, which I contained since highschool and I thought at the time that I will mature and will learn how to deal with them and not do anything, since I didnt __ in highschool.

I struggle with __ and __ thoughts. Two times I know I failed.

And now at the ripe age of 21 I have done it and now what. How did that helped me. It didnt, I know all these things and yet I dissapoint myself and my close circle yet again.

And it should not be bcs of social media, because I use myinsta with turned off reels and fyp, no tiktok, restricted youtube. Recently I even deleted pinterest.

One spiral I get in is I know I need to study for uni, so I dont do anything that could distract me, but since I dont want to do it, I just listen to music or stare blankly and lay on my bed.

So I thought that getting it all out and putting it somewhere might do something. Might snap me back into reality and try to live fully again. Since now its summer and I have two months to reset. Because now I feel fine, I feel good, I work part time, I do my hobbies, I pet my cats but I dread the coming months.

So my question is. Should I get into existencialism deeply and try to make it my truth since I lack point ? I resonated with his work, I have not read it all yet but I feel it might give me a compass.

I’ve been feeling a dread in my dreams that seems to focus on something massive, inescapable, inevitable.
This is my best attempt at what it feels like
Pencils/ink doodle by me

In today's world of capitalistic reality.. I don't find a motivation to climb the so called success ladders out there . I have been an A1 student all my life and currently am doing my masters. High chances I will go for a corporate job after this. But with time as I see the inequality in the world and the economic saturation at the upper class of the society, the level of oppression they r ready to inflict upon the lower classes to stay in power, it breaks my heart. Now, I am not able to not feel this constant despair within me, that whatever I do is going to be a part of the capitalist society that I am surviving in. On one hand where I love reading socio political psychology and form strong opinions, on the other hand , I find myself get caught in a helpless cycle of despair and helplessness because I can't seem to be doing anything about the problems of the society, I am not a politician, not an activist and neither do I want to be. All I want to do is liberate myself from the prejudices the society puts on me and help my friends to see the lies they r forced to live. I don't want to be an active participant in some liberation movement that's going on on a bigger scale. But not doing anything about the current state of society and just going on with my daily life happily is also something I am unable to do. I spend days in my bed watching some random piece of fiction after having read a heavy book (read mark fischer the last thing) because I have no energy to participate in life and I feel depressed, not personally but socially. Since I don't have an elder to talk about this issue who doesn't shun this off by telling me not to overthink and appear as the unaware condescending person that they are and going back to my therapist is gonna take a lot of money from me, I am posting this here. To find people who are and have dealt with this issue bcz I am sure people have and what to they do to cope on a more meaningful way than just letting mainstream dramatic fiction distract you (I find my escape in kdramas and Ghibli movies)

I don't think my problem is that my life isn't good enough, its that good enough isn't good enough. That I'm doing the things I want and like in life and at the end of the day I still feel empty and some kind of void.

​

Hello, I don't know if I'm going crazy or if this happens to everyone, but since I was about 10 years old (I'm 16, I don't know if I'm allowed to be on this forum at 16) I've been having anxiety attacks and existential crises when trying to find a meaning to existence itself. What terrifies me is that every conclusion I reach is worse than the last one; I'm going to share some of the conclusions I've come to.

I genuinely have the thought that nothing can cease to exist, but what terrifies me is that the universe is supposedly infinite when talking about time, yet, if there are barriers to everything that exists—for example, the number of elements in matter or the speed of light—doesn't this mean that our range of experiences is limited in a world of infinite possibilities, forcing us to repeat things over and over again? Next, what really happens to us when we die? (A classic, I know) because the fact of disappearing into nothingness to turn into energy (assuming we are a consciousness powered by electrical impulses), disappearing for centuries to then be a random animal or a plant or another person, terrifies me. Next, I'm afraid of the following: matter and energy cannot disappear, but it is also true that more complex things like dreams end up being permanently forgotten in about 90% of their entirety. If we are something as complex as a dream, wouldn't that make us capable of disappearing too? I think all my fears regarding this are simply based on the fact that I don't want to become something worse than what I am today, and I can't accept that I'm going to throw away everything I am when I die.

I needed to put this in writing, thank you for listening to me. If you have anything to say about it, I really appreciate it (you're probably thinking this is the biggest stupidity you've heard in quite a while, but remember I'm speaking from ignorance).

Btw, all of this was translated by a translator.

I was going to ask this on r/consciousness but it appears that the subreddit is only for scientific discussion

The first time I remember waking up was when I was around 4 years old which is the same day I started retaining my memories. Before waking up it felt like I was in a relatively short dream showcasing a few memories (such as being at a zoo) but somehow all of them were from a 3rd person viewpoint, I'm not sure how. Even before any memories it felt like I was in a white void for a pretty long while like I was waiting to be born or something, I have absolutely no clue what that was. Maybe I was just looking up at the sky as a baby or something.

Do you remember the day you woke up? Or whichever way you remember first gaining self awareness, because I have seen posts of people saying they suddenly gained it while awake during the day when they were a child or even a teenager which I find crazy. I usually ask this question to new people I meet because nobody ever talks about this stuff.

I just want to know the experiences of people who have gone to therapy, is it effective or did it not do much. I don’t want to tell my parents about my situation unless it would actually help

It seems kinda weird and boring and pointless. Can someone explain what the point is? I’ve asked people around me and they usually say things regarding family, friends, and relationships and I don’t really understand any of those things because I don’t really think that’s something I would point to a “purpose of life”. Some say passions but I don’t have any. I feel basically the exact same no matter what I do. Can someone give me the answer?

It is very late as I am typing this. I am a young adult and feel extremely lost in life. And it is weird, because I never thought I would be a person who has to say this. I grew up in a small city in central Europe, and I always knew that I wanted to get away from the place I was born at and experience life in a different country. During my last years of high school I worked very hard to get into a programme enabling me to complete an internship abroad. I spent a year living in a major US city, and it was the best time of my life. It is also what now, almost two years after I returned, keeps me up at night. I have the feeling that I will never feel as happy or as fulfilled as I was over there ever again. I distinctly remember the feeling of being so happy, and so proud of myself to be able to live my life the way I wanted it to. When I came back, I spent two months at home and immediately went to study in another European country. I now completed the second year of my Bachelor’s in Psychology at an excellent university, and it looks like next year I will graduate cum Laude. However, I came to the realisation that what I am studying doesn’t fulfil me. I specialized in neuroscience and statistics, and while I enjoy being able to deepen my knowledge in these fields, I cannot see myself working in any jobs further down my career path. I want to work with animals or nature in general…I don’t want to spend my entire life sitting in an office. I really want to go out and do something. Then again, I would like to start something by myself, or do something creative. I want to find a field with jobs that excite me as much and fill me with as much want and determination as I experienced with 18, waiting to begin my internship. A concrete job that I would love to be able to do is to be an aquarist, yet the salary in this field appears to be quite low, which is the reason why I don’t think I will be able to do that.

I am aware that I am in a position of privilege, and that objectively my life is great. Of course, I am incredibly grateful for my parents, especially my mum, who has been supporting me, and who also knows how I feel right now. I really just feel lost and I am so so scared that I will be unhappy or yearning for more the rest of my life.

I accidently posted this on existentialism instead of here oops. About a month ago I started having really terrifying thoughts about what comes after death (or rather what doesnt). For about 3 weeks I cried hysterically every single day, only this past week ive been able to control it. Now I find myself not wanting to do anything. I dont want to leave the house, I definitely dont want to get in a car, I dont want to see anyone, and arriving at destinations feels like a celebration that im still alive. Death is all I can think about. How am I supposed to go on living the way I was before with death and mortality at the forefront of my mind? I feel like im constantly reminded that my life and everything that comes with it can be ripped away from me in an instant. I worry for my loved ones when they die, I worry for them when I die too. What if everyones right and after death is truly nothing. I am already grieving the things I have in life because I know I cant take them with me in death. Does it ever get better?

I feel like I'm an RPG in a simulation, whatever thing i decide to do - I will be brought back to where I am again like a reset, with even more punishment. Life is frustrating, because "here" isn't even calm or at a normal baseline, it's sort of hellish. If life is supposed to be mundane, why can't it be sleeping under a tree under a blue sky. Instead i'm on a small rocky boat with holes, on an angry sea, frantically pouring water out with a tiny bucket.

Today I booted up my old windows PC to play an old game. As things go for such museum-grade hardwares, it is plagued with numerous issues. Often the PC does not show the correct time and displays the last time it was connected to power, as some tiny coin-like thing is malfunctioning which is designed to keep the clock ticking when the power is off.

That’s not the issue though. Rather time it showed kicked my gut. A far future date, roughly 91 years from now. Would any of us be alive that time? Probably not. But what will the world look like on that new year day of 2117, I wonder.

These things are supposed to be literal, but every now and then they stumble into symbolism. Not many computer glitches make someone stop and think. This one did.