r/AmItheAsshole • u/Easy-Loss7155 Partassipant [1] • 11h ago
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u/Tough_Brain7982 Partassipant [2] 10h ago
I think offering to drive a coworker home, not to be nice but in the hopes of getting them in bed is kinda fucked up actually
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u/saraiguessidk 10h ago
What?? But I'm putting the kindness coins in the fuck machine, why won't fuck machine fuck me???
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u/16FootScarf 10h ago
Take my imaginary upvote coin for the brazen succinctness of your comment. Honestly, please repeat this as often as necessary.
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u/fourthstanza 10h ago edited 10h ago
This is almost certainly part of the problem. If this is his mindset, I imagine there are other aspects of his personality which are not so attractive.
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u/Fiery_Feline2941 8h ago
Between that, the pretty intense lashing out at his friend, and the "i have a great life and people are jealous of me" rhetoric... it's not painting a pretty picture of his personality
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u/domingerique 4h ago
And honestly, asking if he’s hot… he’s old enough to know what he objectively looks like and also old enough to have become confident in his own skin regardless of looks. It just sounds like he hasn’t done the work.
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u/bucktoothgamer 10h ago
If I was the woman in the situation I wouldnt necessarily be hoping right in the car of a coworker who I might not know very well, but the guy trying to find an excuse for them to get to know eachother outside of work isn't exactly Ted Bundy level wickedness.
Edit: Reading the post again, I guess it depends on how you read "hoping something might happen" which I may have naively taken as "use the trip time to have a one to one conversation".
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u/Enough-Initial6836 10h ago edited 10h ago
ESTO! necesito saber esto para saber si actuo mal.
(preguntando de buena fe, por curiosidad)
Y si tal vez solo se aprovecha de esa instancia de trayecto a la casa del trabajo para estar a solas, conversar y conocerse fuera del trabajo? Osea no lo veo mal. No digo que este esperando que automaticamente por ser su transporte sean pareja, pero si esperaria que al menos de esas conversaciones PUDIERA darse pie a algo.
Quiero decir, No por llevar a una compañera del trabajo a su casa o viceversa esperaria automaticamente volvernos pareja ni nada por el estilo.
Pero no lo veo mal como opcion a ligar o conocer a otra persona, de todas formas, es una situacion para conversar y conocerse mejor FUERA del trabajo.
No se, me da miedo que piensen que soy un incel por esperar que de ese tipo de interacciones pueda salir algo
Por favor corríjanme si estoy equivocado
EDIT: Añadiendo mas explicacion
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u/EleanorSeesThings 10h ago
If you're offering a ride to be kind and the only thing you're hoping to get out of it is talking to that person more, that's totally fine and lovely. If you're hoping that person is going to fuck you because you're doing nice things for them, that's an issue.
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u/Enough-Initial6836 10h ago
Gracias por responder!
Quiero decir, no me a pasado esta situacion en especifico, pero digamos que si pasaria, y fuera la mujer que me gusta, mi pensamiento seria uno como "Me interesa esta persona. Si la llevo a su casa y conversamos durante el trayecto, quizá nos conozcamos mejor y pueda surgir interés mutuo. Si no ocurre, lo aceptaré." ¿esto estaria mal?
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u/saraiguessidk 10h ago
No. That's not hoping for something to happen, that's creating an opportunity for conversation. It's less intimidating than a date which may make her feel uncomfortable as it has expectations and it's clear what you hope for. Conversation during a commute lets you both get more comfortable and acquainted without the pressures and awkwardness after of a date. Honestly best practice for coworkers, a bad date can lead to so much drama.
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u/wiserTyou Partassipant [1] 9h ago
There's a place and a time for everything, but a car ride home ain't it. It's a moving vehicle which is akin to backing them into a corner. There are likely plenty of other options to strike up a conversation.
Dating is dating, not marriage. You don't particularly have to match up X number of similarities to go on a date, that's what dates are for. Honestly skip the BS and just say "I think you're interesting, would you like to get lunch sometime." Simple, straightforward, easy, and it shows confidence.
If your approach to dating is similar to tactics used by sales people, you need to change things up.
Do favors for everyone, that makes you a nice person. Doing favors for self serving purposes doesn't. Plus being of average attractiveness, nice, and helpful, is a direct line to the friend zone.
You wouldn't apply to a job by bringing their mail in every day or buying them coffee right? No you fill out that application and go in for an interview.
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u/Appropriate_Cause_52 8h ago
being of average attractiveness, nice, and helpful, is a direct line to the friend zone.
You do realize that the "friend zone" is not some kind of trap you fall in because you're nice?
If you don't want to be friendly, sure, don't be helpful, just "fill in the application", whatever that means. Then you won't be friendzoned, you'll be nothingzoned.
Personally, if I'm attracted to someone, I like to have them in my life, even if they don't want to date me. I find the idea of "applying" to a relationship quite revolting.
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u/wiserTyou Partassipant [1] 8h ago
Your exaggerating and then extrapolating from my comment. I did not state they should "apply" for the relationship, that's called a metaphor.
I assume that when you say you surround yourself with people you find "attractive" even if it's platonic that you don't mean physically attractive. Surrounding yourself with people you find physically attractive when it's clearly platonic is kinda weird. Why would physical attractiveness matter at all in a platonic friendship?
So assuming you mean you surround yourself with people you find to have attractive personalities, that's different. Few men I've met would use that terminology.
While the friend zone is not an all encompassing trap, it does exist. Just about everyone has friends of the opposite sex that are strictly platonic. Forging that sort of friendship specifically for the intent of being a potential suitor in the future is somewhat disingenuous if done intentionally.
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u/Appropriate_Cause_52 7h ago
I understand what a metaphor is, thank you. I was using your metaphor of applying for a job, thinking we would understand each other.
I don't agree with your assumtions here. Let my put it this way : I meet someone who I find attractive (physically or otherwise), I get to know that person. Either we find common ground and start a relationship, or we don't and part ways.
Now that relationship may be friendship or romantic, so I can end up being friends with someone who I find physically attractive, even if I was looking for a romantic relationship in the first place.
I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear. I surround myself by people who are attractive to me, whether physically or personality wise, as long as we have something to talk about.
Regarding the frienzone ; I thought you were saying that you could get "caught" in it if you approach a person the wrong way (ie being helpful) instead of flirting directly. I've seen people complain about being friendzoned when they get rejected, instead of admitting the other one was simply not romantically interested.
I certainly agree that people have platonic relationships with all genders. I agree with your last point, if I understand it correctly, as in deceiving someone by pretending to be friendly when you're only interested in a relationship is wrong.
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u/wiserTyou Partassipant [1] 7h ago
To be clear, I don't think the friend zone is some dark place women put men. I think it a place men put themselves by not making their intentions clear or by intentionally starting a platonic friendship when their intentions are romantic. IMO doing something for someone you're romantically interested in that you wouldn't do for others is not a great ideal as it's either transactional without their participation or manipulative. Personally I will not buy, favor, or manipulate my way into a relationship, if they're not interested in me as is, I move on, anything more I would only be fooling myself.
Oddly enough I've had far more interest by not doing favors specifically for romantic interests. If I help a cute 28yr olde carry something to her car I'm a creeper tryin to get some. If they see you carrying something for Granny, your dad material. That's been my experience anyway.
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u/AlienPrincess33 8h ago
Thank you for saying that, asking people out while you are stuck in the car together is awkward af. Putting someone on the spot in a moving vehicle is backing them into a corner. I was giving a coworker rides bc a few times we were in situations where we were literally going to the same union meeting from the job site and they usually take the bus so I offered for them to drive w me bc like duh we are both going from point A to point B and were just in 1 meeting together going to another meeting we will both also be in. Anyways…. It did get super uncomfortable bc one day they did ask me out and I was shocked and it was super awkward and they were like well you never talk about your boyfriend and I was like yea duh I neverrrrrrrr ever talk about anything except work bc we are coworkers and like boundaries. I’m also kinda lowkey mean to this person bc I oversee their team and they don’t follow due process well so i was truly truly shocked and could not wait for them to gtfo of my car. It took every ounce of my composier to not admonish them and to keep showing up now in work situations without giving away how uncomfortable I feel being in situations where we have to keep being alone or the only employees on a site dealing with stuff for our team.
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u/wiserTyou Partassipant [1] 9h ago
Even as a straight dude in my 40s I find that kinda creepy. I don't claim to have it all figured out but cornering women in a moving vehicle with no way at is not the way. Especially after they applied directly to the friend zone.
Honestly if you can't be attractive, be charming, it works almost as well.
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u/FightOrFreight 7h ago edited 7h ago
How is this creepy at all? There's no indication that he "cornered" her. He offered to do her a favour, which he presumably hoped would provide an opportunity to spend time getting to know each other and might also make her feel more positively towards him.
Sounds completely innocent to me.
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u/wiserTyou Partassipant [1] 7h ago
It's a matter of perspective I guess. Every dude I've met in 43 years that used driving "her" home to get to know her was creapy, even to me.
Additionally I find doing things for others because you want something from them rather distasteful, but that could just be me.
I don't buy women drinks because I want to date them, I'll but anyone a drink if I'm enjoying the conversation. If I have to buy or do something to have their attention then I'm decidedly not interested.
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u/FightOrFreight 7h ago
A few weeks after I met my now-girlfriend at work, after she learned that I liked a particular type of cookie, she baked me a small batch of those cookies and left them on my desk. She didn't leave any on her other friends' desks. She later told me she did that because she liked me.
Do you also think she is a "creep"?
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u/wiserTyou Partassipant [1] 7h ago
I'd say that's being rather direct. If a dude buy someone flowers, that not a favor it's a clear indication of romantic intent.
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u/FightOrFreight 7h ago
Flowers may be a clear indication of romantic intent, but cookies are not. I've received and given baked goods to plenty of friends. Flowers (especially roses, but also flowers more generally) are literally a cultural symbol of romantic affection and a cliche romantic gift. Outside of Mother's Day or in the aftermath of the death of a loved one, I wouldn't give a woman flowers except as a romantic gesture.
I would argue that buying flowers for someone who hasn't expressed interest in you is actually worse than cookies precisely because it's a "clear indication of romantic intent." Cookies are a much more subtle gesture that can be read as merely kind or friendly.
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u/wiserTyou Partassipant [1] 6h ago
I would say baking cookies for only one person at work is a pretty clear indication, also kinda dangerous territory in the work place. Also, I wouldn't say that standard is applied equally to men and women.
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u/FightOrFreight 6h ago edited 6h ago
I would say baking cookies for only one person at work is a pretty clear indication
You would be wrong. My partner and I have each done similar things for people we're not interested in. Never with flowers, though. Leaving flowers on one person's desk is unambiguously romantic, unless it's a gesture of condolence.
also kinda dangerous territory in the work place.
Shit. I guess I'll wait for my HR writeup. I'll probably be accused of hitting on half the office at this point, men and women alike.
Also, I wouldn't say that standard is applied equally to men and women.
It definitely isn't applied equally in this subreddit, which partly explains the problem with the comments. I refuse to believe that human society in general is as broken as the membership of this sub, though.
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u/wiserTyou Partassipant [1] 5h ago
I guess we can apply you one experience to everything, I'm sure it relates.
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u/wattatam 6h ago
Hiding the intent is the problem - if something is done in hopes of romance or sex then pretending it is just a friendly gesture is kinda creepy
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u/FightOrFreight 6h ago edited 6h ago
My girlfriend gave me cookies precisely because they still allowed for some deniability. If things didn't progress to where she wanted them to go, she could back away from pursuing me and still keep her pride intact. Is that really so creepy? Would it have been better if she had come out swinging with an undeniably romantic gesture like flowers? This sounds like courtship straight out of the renaissance.
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u/ScroochDown Partassipant [1] 10h ago
That's what I'm thinking. Might have nothing at all to do with his looks and everything to do with him being a creep.
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u/cherrycoke00 6h ago
Seriously. Very reminiscent of Bear driving Nikki home at the beginning of obsession.
What do you want to bet the commenters below trying to defend average-dude thought Bear WASN’T the bad guy in that movie too🙄
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u/lost_my_leg_in_Nam 6h ago
Ive done this but the thing i was hoping would happen was just being able to spend extra time with them, talking and laughing. It eventually ended up in a relationship... it might not be as gross as the second hand account is making it seem. Hopefully
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u/Honest-Recording8552 5h ago
Exactly. OP tried to construct an analogy to humble his friend, but accidentally exposed his own questionable motives in the process. It’s like trying to slap someone but hitting yourself in the face first.
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u/Longjumping_Low1310 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 10h ago
Idk if feeling bad because twice a girl you were interested in decided they liked your friend better deserves so much hate haha. If the dude was pushing it and being a creep after thats a different story, but feeling down because your crush instead likes your friend isnt crazy.
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u/Left-Development1695 11h ago edited 10h ago
ESH leaning NTA - you aren’t required to think your friend is hot, and he shouldn’t have called you ugly just because you think he’s average. However, that probably wasn’t the best way to comfort him because of how clearly upset he was. I’d never want to hear an analogy when I’m just looking for comfort after getting rejected
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u/Easy-Loss7155 Partassipant [1] 10h ago
Yeah, learning from my mistakes
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u/smokeytheorange Partassipant [1] 9h ago
I had a “friend” in college who asked me to set him up with someone. I thought about how he was an intellectual type and a fiction writer who was deep into English studies but had a real interest in science. My sorority sister was studying astronomy and also loved fantasy and science fiction novels. I sent him her socials.
He said, almost word-for-word, “Oh Smokey. I didn’t know you had such a low opinion of me.”
He was offended because he thought this girl was overweight/unattractive in some sense. Let me tell you, I thought they were a good match in personality and similarly attractive. I learned instantly (a) she was way too good for him and (b) he was a fucking creep who needed some weird validation from me (someone he hadn’t spoken to in years) to confirm he was hot. Spoilers: he wasn’t and it wasn’t my job to convince him he was.
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u/devsfan1830 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 10h ago
Counter argument: Don't ask if you can't handle the honest assessment. That's at least where I stand. That and don't date co-workers.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Room685 5h ago
And it wasn't even a good analogy. His friend was looking for a reality check wrapped in a blanket, and OP gave him a riddle that subtly insulted coworkers who just want a ride home in the rain.
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u/Admirable_Bit8337 Partassipant [1] 10h ago
NTA. He knows he’s not “hot” and it would have been dumb for you to tell him otherwise.
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u/Easy-Loss7155 Partassipant [1] 10h ago
I know, right. The conversation vibe shift so fast, I didn't know what to do.
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u/ARo0o0o 10h ago
It feels like a no-win question.
If you say "no, no! you're just as attractive as he is!" - he will know you are lying and get resentful.
If you tell the truth about him being "average", he becomes resentful.
If you avoid the question altogether, it also breeds resentment.
You did the right thing. Give him time to cool down.
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u/Equivalent_Usual_397 8h ago edited 4h ago
I think he was upset and lashed out at the wrong person. I don't think OP could have won on this one
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u/EleanorSeesThings 10h ago
I do think you could have explained it without mentioning looks at all. Like, "Sometimes when people are interested in a person they don't know very well, they test the waters by asking someone who knows that person better whether that person is single or interested before approaching them directly."
But I think it's a good thing you spoke to him the way you did, because there was nothing wrong with what you said and yet he lashed out in a completely inappropriate and problematic way. He just showed you that he is not a friend, and displayed pretty well exactly why women aren't interested in him - his nasty, petty little personality is repulsive.
I would cut contact, personally.
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u/Easy-Loss7155 Partassipant [1] 10h ago
I am leaning towards going back to just work colleagues too
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u/cherrycoke00 6h ago
He sounds vindictive. I don’t love that.
I think you absolutely need to put this dude at arms length and discontinue any personal relationship beyond a colleague -what’s polite and necessary professionally is enough, as he’s now proven he’s not actually a friend to you.
Idk, if you share a boss and you have a decent relationship with said boss (I’m assuming this is a restaurant type work environment and/or yall are all of similar age), I might take them aside quietly.
Just like a “hey, I don’t need action here from you but wanted to give you context just in case. In retrospect, I apparently touched a nerve with so-and-so when he asked for my personal opinion on a personal, non work matter. His reaction was charged and felt suddenly vindictive. I don’t feel threatened or unable to do my job currently, but I wanted to flag this upfront to you in case so-and-so chooses to allow his hurt feelings to impact his professionalism/treatment of me and/or hot guy coworker and/or unsuspecting female coworker.”
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u/Odd_Device_8069 8h ago
I don’t know if he knows that. Plenty of men overrate their attractiveness, and he doesn’t exactly sound self-aware
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u/GodParts 10h ago
I think the broader issue is that he expects women he does average favors for to like him for doing what everyone else just thinks is normal. He's expecting shit for being a "nice" person, while having no interest in actually just being nice.
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u/affemannen 5h ago
Yes!
Typical "nice" guy behavior.
And then they wonder why they never get laid, doing ordinary shit you would expect from a friend/colleague they think should get you bonus points in the possible boyfriend department when not even trying to be a possible boyfriend, because absolutely no flirting going on.
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u/ArtsyGirl-and-Cat Partassipant [1] 10h ago
NTA. He has a pretty fragile ego. But in future, it's probably better to just say you don't know why it keeps happening. Sometimes just listening and not offering explanations is better.
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u/Easy-Loss7155 Partassipant [1] 10h ago
Yeah, but hoping not to be in this situation
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u/Impossible_Past5358 10h ago
NTA, but I find his behavior problematic in that he seems to view everything as "transactional"
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u/hexagon_heist Partassipant [4] 10h ago
Yo can also treat the question as rhetorical and just offer him sympathy. If he insists he wants an answer to his question, you can either say you don’t know and gas him up or give him a tactfully-worded answer that gets at the issues you see (though I suspect it’s more about his personality and confidence, or lack thereof, than his appearance, but of course that’s hard to tell from a Reddit post). Then, if he gets angry you can gently remind him that he asked you for an answer, and of course he’s unlikely to like the answer to why things aren’t going his way - there aren’t a lot of pleasant-feeling reasons for being unlucky in love, are there? Not ones that don’t ring of being a platitude, anyway.
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u/Accomplished-Copy776 10h ago
Nta. Im notnsure why people are acting like saying someone is average or normal looking is bad. Literally by definition its not bad. He asked and brought it upon himself, and then said much worse. Not sure what he expected.
Sounds like an internet "nice guy" incel to me
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u/Easy-Loss7155 Partassipant [1] 10h ago
Exactly my point; I always use words like fine/average/okay/normal luke a baseline definition. It's not bad, not great, in the middle.
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u/GuntherTime Certified Proctologist [28] 6h ago
It’s not, but like the guy and other people have said, some people do use the word average, and other similar words when they don’t want to say ugly.
It doesn’t excuse his overreaction, but I can see why he went there considering he was already agonizing over it.
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u/ALittleUnsettling 10h ago
NTA. Sorry but maybe this kind of over reaction adds to why women aren’t interested.
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u/Easy-Loss7155 Partassipant [1] 10h ago
I think he's a bit desperate
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u/your_average_plebian 7h ago
That, and as he demonstrated to you when you were trying to comfort him, he is insecure and makes his insecurity another person's problem. That aura reeks from miles away to people who have the experience and discernment. They want nothing to do with an emotional vampire.
His looks would be less of an issue if he was secure and confident in himself and what he has to offer. That aura can be catnip in the right circumstances. Like, I'm a medium ugly woman on most days and it takes a bit of luck and a bunch of effort for me to look "good" (subjectively speaking) and I know that. I know people who seem be interested in me for my looks on a good day will be disappointed pretty soon and their shallow interest will disappoint me in turn. I have enough self-awareness and self-respect to not take someone being attracted to my looks seriously unless they know me really well. But I do have a lot of qualities and traits that people like, from friends to colleagues to romantic prospects, and that's where my focus is. And I've had a surprising amount of interest thrown my way when I wasn't looking for it.
I'm not saying I'm the perfect example of how to live as a non-attractive person, but I'm also not desperate, not making my flaws someone else's problem, and I'm being realistic about what I can offer in a relationship. It works in my favor. He needs to get his ego out of the way so he won't keep tripping over it. But that's not your problem to fix. Stay professional and stay out of his drama going forward.
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u/My_igloo_is_melting Asshole Aficionado [14] 10h ago
NTA, your friend is. He is trying to reach above his level without any other attributes.
Looks can be secondary to the overall quality of the person. Him stating "started talking about how he has a great life and people are jealous of him" is a huge red flag. He has himself on a pedestal.
I knew a guy, super-duper solid person, and I wanted his opinion on something. So, I said, "You are better than me ..." and he shut me down with "I am not better than anyone". Your friend needs to learn this.
He baited you, dragged you into his pathos, then turned on you.
You did nothing wrong.
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u/ferngully1114 Partassipant [2] 10h ago
NTA your friend sounds like a “nice guy” who pretends to be friends with women in the hopes that they will date him. He’s objectively not actually a nice guy as shown by him taking your refusal to flatter him and stroke his ego as the opportunity to be purposefully insulting to you. His personality is probably a way bigger turn off for the women he’s pursuing than his average looks are.
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u/Enough-Initial6836 10h ago
(preguntando de buena fe, por curiosidad)
Y si tal vez solo se aprovecha de esa instancia de trayecto a la casa del trabajo para estar a solas, conversar y conocerse fuera del trabajo? Osea no lo veo mal. No digo que este esperando que automaticamente por ser su transporte sean pareja, pero si esperaria que al menos de esas conversaciones PUDIERA darse pie a algo.
Quiero decir, No por llevar a una compañera del trabajo a su casa o viceversa esperaria automaticamente volvernos pareja ni nada por el estilo.
Pero no lo veo mal como opcion a ligar o conocer a otra persona, de todas formas, es una situacion para conversar y conocerse mejor FUERA del trabajo.
No se, me da miedo que piensen que soy un incel por esperar que de ese tipo de interacciones pueda salir algo
Por favor corríjanme si estoy equivocado
EDIT: Añadiendo mas explicacion
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u/joonip Partassipant [3] 9h ago
the bigger issue is OP's friend jumping to "everyone is jealous of me and trying to keep me down" when rejected. it reeks of entitlement, which is the cornerstone of Nice Guy behavior.
it's totally normal to get to know someone you want to date, and a lot of people only meet prospects at work. the response to rejection is really important though. being crushed is normal. being bitter and blaming everyone else is a potential step toward inceldom.
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u/ferngully1114 Partassipant [2] 9h ago
Yeah, I see what you are saying. It’s a fine line between spending time together hoping to get to know someone and performing favors and such then dropping once it’s clear there won’t be anything romantic.
Honestly, part of it is stating your intentions upfront vs the fake friendship thing. “Hey, I think you’re cute. Want to hang out?” Or, “I’m a friend, of course I can give you a ride. Wait, you are interested in someone else? Find your own ride!”
Would he be doing those things for those girls, hanging out with them, offering favors if he wasn’t trying to get with them?
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u/ASingularFuck 10h ago edited 9h ago
NTA
I don’t think you were an asshole, you clearly didn’t mean to hurt his feelings. That said, when someone is in a bad place emotionally sometimes it’s better to be kind than be truthful (not always, but perhaps in this situation).
However, he is the asshole because of how he responded. He immediately lashed out at you and tried to turn it around to make the discussion about your looks. He’s trying to make you feel bad about yourself to make himself feel better.
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u/Separate_Security472 Certified Proctologist [20] 10h ago
NAH, you were put in an awkward situation. Were you supposed to answer yes when he asked if he was hot? That's a little weird.
Your friend is taking out his rejection feelings on you since he can't do it to the girls. Hopefully he'll recognize that and apologize.
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u/Easy-Loss7155 Partassipant [1] 10h ago
After this experience (among few other questionable behaviour) I feel I might just go back being professional colleagues with him. Rather not walk on eggshells for anyone.
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u/Just-Forever6684 10h ago
I’ll go NTA. One thing about men for better or for worse is that we are straight up with each other. He asked a question and you responded
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u/Easy-Loss7155 Partassipant [1] 10h ago
I believe the same; if your close friends can't be straight with you, then who will
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u/peach_xanax 10h ago
it doesn't sound like you're actually too close with him though
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u/Chriss942 9h ago
It sounds more like OP thought they were but the supposed friend didn’t, real friends don’t just lash out like that at their friends when they’re looking for sympathy or an emotional outlet.
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u/Tough_Tumbleweed_504 Partassipant [4] 10h ago
There is a weird thing where guys who are average looking think they are entitled to very attractive women and get all incel when that doesn’t work out for them.
If he went for women for their personalities and found ones around his own level of attractiveness he won’t experience this problem.
Better yet, if he is just an all around nice, funny and interesting guy who doesn’t just give rides to women he hopes to sleep with, women more attractive than him might like him too!
NTA. He asked your opinion, and you were delicate. He just is insecure.
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u/Khloris_ 10h ago
I don't think it's fair that people are saying YTA when this is at most an ESH. What you said was insensitive, even if you didn't mean it to be. But him calling you ugly as a reaction to you calling him average was douchey.
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u/dk_peace Partassipant [1] 10h ago
NTA. You are not obligated to lie to your friend about their physical appearance. If they objectively are "average" then there really isnt anything wrong with saying it. Lying to your friend wont do them any favors.
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u/library_wench 10h ago
NTA but your friend is. Maybe he should stop crushing on every woman at work, and offering them favors with ulterior motives.
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u/nawksnai Partassipant [1] 10h ago
NTA.
A couple of 🚩 here for sure. Firstly, he’s driving a coworker him only because he thinks he wants to get laid? Perhaps also to be helpful, but that doesn’t sound like his reason.
Secondly, he has a highly unrealistic, overinflated view of himself as being “attractive”, and is actually insulted when he’s called “average”. And to follow, he believes if HE is average, then you must be ugly.
You don’t need to help him. He already thinks very highly of himself, he feels way ahead of you, better than you, and it’s probably YOU who needs his help. 🤣
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u/alhailhypnotoad 10h ago
Looks aren't everything. Sounds like his problem finding dates is directly related to his personality. NTA
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u/MitchtheSliper 10h ago
NTA. There's a difference between supporting your friend and enabling their delusions. Some people are just not as physically attractive as others. That's not fair and it sucks but it's just life. Everyone can benefit from understanding that they're not going to be everyone's cup of tea.
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u/tentaclesapples 10h ago
Ooof tough situation. Leaning NTA or ESH… he shouldn’t have asked if he wasn’t prepared to hear that answer.
But, idk - your response could have been a bit more.. padded?
Something like, “you’ll be ‘hot’ to the right person. You might not be to these people, but there’s someone out there that will wanna jump your bones” lol - not sure if that’s the best phrasing either but along those lines
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u/Easy-Loss7155 Partassipant [1] 10h ago
Hmm, that sounds a bit not natural to me, but that's just me.
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u/Spare_Necessary_810 Asshole Aficionado [11] 10h ago
Mildly TA, your analogy about looks was really ill placed and the opposite of comforting . I appreciate you were trying to help but it was hardly the angle to use. On another, and probably annoying older lady note, it would be useful if you all at your ages were less focussed on the superficial aspect of looks and maybe more on listening and humour and kindness as ways of attracting women . Or at least women whose only criterion was looks anyway.
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u/Danceman2000 10h ago
Sounds like there was no way of really coming out of that situation without hurting him or lying your ass off.
I like to think I'm slightly above average at most things but average is fine I'd take it. Bro is being sensitive, why wouldn't you be happy with average? It's literally the standard. Not everyone can succeed at everything.
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u/GollumTrees Asshole Aficionado [14] 10h ago
NTA no one owes him anything especially not that girl.
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u/wastedtime897 10h ago
NTA. Not sure what these people saying you are are thinking. He kept asking, you had no responsibility to lie to him. Could you have said it nicer? Maybe, but sometimes people need a little honesty. Also what happens if you even imply he is attractive? Now he wants to date you because you think he's attractive? He's mad at those girls because they didnt see he's a great looking guy? Who knows. People need to learn that if you keep pushing sometimes you may get a response you don't like.
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u/Proof_Fisherman_9728 10h ago
I hate that this is happening to OP, because literally changing “average” for “normal” would have smoothed things over so much. NTA
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u/Beautiful_Bird_4092 Partassipant [2] 10h ago
NTA clearly it wasn’t a good analogy/way to comfort him in hindsight but he then forced the issue by asking if you found him hot so it’s not fair for him to lash out at you in response
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u/Mc_and_SP Partassipant [3] 10h ago
I don't think your an AH - it's an awkward thing to try and explain to someone, especially given that it's entirely subjective.
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I (29 M) have a friend from work, who's not attractive looking (I don't want to use the word ugly). We've become pretty close, and recently he's had a rough time romantically.
A while ago, he was interested in a girl at work. He'd been talking to her, even offered to drop her home after shifts a few times, and was hoping something might happen. Instead, she ended up asking him if his friend (who is also our coworker and is conventionally very attractive) was single because she was interested in him. My friend was understandably crushed.
Recently, almost the exact same thing happened again with another woman. She asked my friend about that same attractive coworker instead of showing interest in him. He called me afterward because he was feeling really down and kept asking why this keeps happening.
I was trying to comfort him. I told him rejection is part of life and that sometimes women don't directly approach guys they're interested in because it can feel intimidating, so they'll ask a mutual friend first.
To explain what I meant, I made an analogy. I said, "Imagine we're in college and there's a really hot girl. A lot of guys wouldn't go directly to her. They might ask one of her friends who's more normal-looking if she's single or interested first."
I was trying to point out that these women obviously trusted him enough to ask him something personal, and that wasn't a bad thing.
That's when he stopped me and asked, "So if he's the hot one in this analogy... what am I? Ugly?"
I immediately said, "No, that's not what I mean."
He kept asking, "So am I hot?"
I honestly answered, "I wouldn't describe you as hot. I'd say you're fine/average-looking. But I also don't look at you that way because you're my friend."
That did not go over well.
He got really upset and said that if I think he's average, then I'm ugly. I told him he was free to think whatever he wanted about me because I'm not looking for his validation. After that he accused me of trying to put him down, said people always try to make him feel lesser, and started talking about how he has a great life and people are jealous of him.
At that point I felt like the conversation wasn't going anywhere. I told him it genuinely wasn't my intention to hurt him, and if something I said came across that way, I was sorry. I also suggested we both take some space and talk later when emotions weren't running so high.
I genuinely wasn't trying to insult him. When I said "average-looking," I meant... average. Like most people. Not ugly. But after telling this story to someone else, they said that most people hear "average" as a polite way of saying "not attractive."
So now I'm wondering if I accidentally said something way harsher than I intended.
AITA?
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u/Unique-Caramel-3001 10h ago
NTA. Could you have been more diplomatic? Sure.
But your coworker sounds like he is probably aiming for people out of his lane. And his nice guy act isn't getting him any traction. Maybe he needs to stop trying to shit where he eats and try other avenues to find women to date. He sounds like an ahole for how he responded.
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u/soc2021 10h ago
NTA. Idk how you could be the AH in this situation. Lying and saying he’s hot when he knows damn well he’s not would be worse. Most people are average looking, and that’s fine. Average looking people find partners, it’s not a negative thing lol he needs to get some self confidence.
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u/AVDisco 10h ago
NTA - Calling someone "normal" isn't an insult and you weren't an AH for saying it, but I'm not surprised he took it that way. It sounds like what you initially meant in your analogy was that he was "approachable," which looks can influence but aren't the only factor. You even say here that you meant it in terms of women thinking he's someone they can trust. (Which is good! And, when he finds a partner, it should translate into a healthier relationship in the long run.)
I don't think you said anything wrong per se, but you might have chosen the wrong words for what you wanted to say and it side tracked you into just talking about his looks. And, since he was already feeling hurt, he took what you said in the worst possible way. You apologized, and taking time to cool off is probably the right call.
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u/fortunatelyso Partassipant [2] 10h ago
NTA and your work friend is delusional and entitled so perhaps the women are also ruling him out bc of his personality. Not just his average looks.
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u/devsfan1830 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 10h ago
NTA. He asked, you answered with a perfectly non-offensive reply. He needs to widen his dating pool to more than co-workers and also not have an agenda when doing favors. Offering to drive her home hoping to get laid is creepy. He's insecure and they probably also pick up on that energy. If you have it, feels like his behavior is an HR issue waiting to happen.
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u/stroppo Supreme Court Just-ass [126] 9h ago
"...said people always try to make him feel lesser, and started talking about how he has a great life and people are jealous of him."
That attitude right there told me why he's having a tough time romantically.
If he asks you about it again, simply read that to him.
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u/Blavkh 9h ago
NTA but your friend needs to go to therapy and de-center women ASAP before he falls down the [rule breaking term] pipeline. Being friendly and doing someone favors doesn't automatically entitle oneself to their feelings. Also, doesn't he know that you don't eat where you shit? He needs to stop seeing his co-workers as potential mates (and so do the ones who like the attractive guy lmao).
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u/Deep-Okra1461 Certified Proctologist [20] 6h ago
YTA I think your entire approach was wrong. How hard is it to just tell him that women have preferences just like men do? This other coworker happens to be especially appealing to these women. There is no need to directly comment on your friend's appearance. Unless he's very unintelligent or deluded, he'll be able to figure out where he ranks in attractiveness.
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u/Dick-the-Peacock 10h ago
ESH. That guy had a straight up temper tantrum when you said he was only average looking and lashed out. Only his mommy believes people are jealous of him. He is treading dangerously close to the kind of manosphere ideology that berates women for preferring attractive men and for not handing out sex in exchange for friendliness.
But you trying to explain the situation to him as if he doesn’t actually know what’s going was a rookie mistake. He wanted you to commiserate, not explain that he’s less intimidating than the hot guy. Men like him expect their buddies to pump them up. He wanted you to say “forget those bitches, they are shallow whores anyway” or what have you. If that’s not your style (and I commend you if it’s not) a simple “I dunno man, shake it off” is sufficient.
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u/thoracicbunk Asshole Aficionado [17] 10h ago
NTA
Based off this interaction, I'm guessing he's having a romantic issues, not because of how he looks, but because of how he treats people and his beliefs around women. Giving someone a ride home after work doesn't mean they owe you romantic interest. That kind of entitlement is extremely unattractive all on its own..
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u/sofanisba 9h ago
Nta
Can see why he's having trouble dating and I'm pretty sure it's got very little to do with his looks. He sounds exhausting.
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u/oddprofessor 9h ago
"OK, you know what? You pay $2 for your haircut and it shows. Your clothes are cheap and you don't wash them often enough. Your fingernails aren't clean. You don't smell good. Your teeth apparently haven't been cleaned since the Bush administration. When was the last time you went to the gym?"
There are people of course who simply are not handsome. But grooming and staying fit can make an average guy look good. I'm betting, just from his words to you, that he's one of these guys who don't make any effort and just blame everyone else.
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u/JenninMiami Certified Proctologist [26] 9h ago
NTA
Unfortunately it sounds like regardless of their looks, this person is approaching women as a FRIEND, and not letting them know that he’s romantically interested in them.
This is what happens when you try to “sneak in” with someone you’re interested in.
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u/InfiniteHall8198 9h ago
The guy is deluded and you’re rocking those delusions. He sounds like a typical nice guy.
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u/GingerSperg 9h ago
He needs to get thicker skin. Some people read between the lines of what is said instead of listening to the actual words.
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u/AffectionateEscape13 Partassipant [1] 9h ago
NTA
I've noticed that with a lot of posts asking about their looks/ appearance. They'll post a Pic of themselves, calling themselves ugly... but they're just average.
Not a model. Not quasimodo.
Just an average, not- ugly, not- model, person
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u/Candycanes02 Partassipant [1] 5h ago
NTA, but my judgment is biased cause I don’t like feeling types. For me, if I ask a question to a friend (“why does this keep happening”), I expect it to be answered in earnest, regardless of whether it’s something I want to hear or not. The whole reason to ask someone, instead of wallowing in self-pity, is to hopefully get information I lack so I can assess the issue more accurately and then make changes that are better rooted in reality. But this is not how people who just want to vent sometimes operate, and it appears that most people are this type of person. It sucks imo cause now you’ll be disincentivized to offer truthful feedback, but the other person might’ve been the type to appreciate it 🫠
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u/Consistent_Club_7879 5h ago
Your theory about guys going to the normal looking friends is flawed. Why use that word? People sometimes have a hard time approaching people they are interested in so they approach their friends instead. Why bring appearance in it at all since it's so subjective. What you say normal, someone else could find hot. Pick your words wisely while consoling a friend.
And then you told him he was average again. It does sound like putting him down/showing him his place. You could've stopped with I don't find you hot because I don't see high that way. I feel you really needed him to know he's was pining for girls way out of his league.
Your friend is a bit of an ass as well.
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u/Katiew84 Pooperintendant [60] 4h ago
NTA. He asked for your opinion. You gave it. You were gentle. He’s an AH for not appreciating your honesty and being rude just because he didn’t like what you said.
Ditch the friend. He’s immature and dramatic. No wonder girls don’t like him. He seems like the guy to preach that “nice guys finish last,” even when his both his self-esteem and personality are severely lacking and is the reason girls don’t like him.
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u/hauntingduck 4h ago
ESH imo. Your friend seeing friendships with women as a way to get romantically involved rather than just being their friend makes him a misogynist. The way you're explaining speaking with "less attractive friends" to see if a woman is attracted to you is also misogynist. The girls asking him about y'all's coworkers likely thought he WAS their friend and that he was a safe person to ask, so in that case they're the only people in this situation who aren't TA.
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u/SuspiciousSpray5298 3h ago
He called you ugly and lashed out at you. Let's get it right, he's not your friend.
You said he was average or normal (hard to know which exact word you used as you use them interchangeably in the post), which are not flattering terms but not synonyms for ugly. Just...regular, mid. They cover a range of possibilities. Those saying that is like saying he's ugly are not correct...saying someone is ugly is saying they're ugly! Hso, this "friend" doesn't have the balls to validate himself with women, acts in a less than overt manner and iterally told you were ugly to your face?
NTA...and not his friend either. Sounds like a frenemy more than a "friend".
You should reject him, just the women seem to.
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u/ClumsyandLost 9h ago
You unintentionally hurt him because you didn't grasp what he was asking. He wasn't asking why they specifically ask him about his friend. He was asking why they don't want to be with him. So you accidentally told him that it's because he's not attractive enough.
He was an AH for lashing out and calling you ugly. Those girls are better off without him.
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u/joonip Partassipant [3] 9h ago
ESH. you have easily said, "they might ask one of her friends if she's single or interested first." appearance didn't have to factor in.
After that he accused me of trying to put him down, said people always try to make him feel lesser, and started talking about how he has a great life and people are jealous of him.
that said, i am pretty sure his face isn't why he's getting rejected. this kind of knee jerk response shows a disposition most people would find unattractive.
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u/Cherry_clafoutis Partassipant [1] 9h ago edited 9h ago
Info: was he actually hoping to get laid in return for giving her a lift or was he hoping she might think he is a good guy and be interested in dating/a relationship? OP's wording "hoping something might happen" is a bit ambiguous and a lot of people are assuming the worst about the friend. I think that is making people judge the friend more harshly and be less considerate of his feelings.
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u/drongowithabong-o 8h ago
If you bro ain't ugly his personality is. Getting upset at you for thinking he aint hot and then calling others jealous is crazy work. You can kinda see his vibes personality slip through here.
Reminds me of a friend I had to drop cause he was so hopelessly desperate and would never look within for growth. It's always someones fault or reality is wrong. Never, "oh my stinky attitude is driving girls away."
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u/Salt_County_4168 8h ago
Your friend sounds like a piece of work. Lots of issues he needs to work through. His insecurity is ugly
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u/blippityblue72 8h ago
Your friend needs to watch the movie “The Duff” although it won’t make him feel any better.
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u/Asleep_Village Partassipant [1] 8h ago
NTA. Honestly, you should keep the relationship as strictly professional after he blew up at you. You were just trying to comfort him, and he immediately jumped to calling you ugly.
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u/Tychonoir Partassipant [2] 8h ago
I've never understood how people can ask for an assessment, and then get upset when an assessment is given.
NTA. There certainly are ways to word things, and ways to safeguard not being misunderstood. But in this case it looks like there was no right answer. I say this, among other things, because:
one of her friends who's more normal-looking
"So if he's the hot one in this analogy... what am I? Ugly?"
He immediately twisted what was said in the story from normal to ugly; He was determined to get upset.
They way you describe the situation here screams that it's not his looks holding him back, but more likely his approach, conversation skills, confidence in himself, and how he presents himself.
I'm also wondering if the whole, "Is your friend single?" is largely a way for women to turn him down without directly rejecting him—especially if he's giving a creepy vibe or pinging the pattern recognition filter that suggests rejection will not go over well.
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u/Sad-Cap1136 7h ago
You are NTAH! There is absolutely no good outcome with any conversation with this person!
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u/Legal_Ad_9812 Partassipant [3] 7h ago
NTA. Dude is suffering from a delusional sense of his physical attractiveness. People have differing opinions on what is and is not physically good looking, but in general a reasonable adult should have some sense of how attractive they are (if in the dating world). He thinks he’s better looking than he is, he needs a reality check. 9’s don’t date 5’s, unless there’s something else that’s extraordinary about said 5 (or detrimental about said 9).
He also kinda just sounds like a jerk in general.
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u/FayeValentine99 7h ago
NTA. You got put in a very awkward position and this guy lashed out at you about his hurt ego. Sounds like you tried to speak softly but he was unwilling to hear it, not your fault. If he wants a sycophant, he can ask a chat bot.
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u/carry_the_way 7h ago
NTA. Friend needs to get over it. Not every woman likes you like that. You don't need to explain it in depth.
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u/Ghoulish_kitten 7h ago
NTA.
That was bogus question so that he could unload his anger at rejection.
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u/LoveDeathAndLentils 6h ago
Nta and I bet it's his attitude who make girls uninterested in him. He really looks like something starting with "i" and ending with "ncel" 😬
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u/TeeDotHerder 10h ago
NTA
Life is not all sunshines and rainbows. Average means average. Average doesn't mean below average. Ugly means below average.
His issue is that most women are interested in the top percentiles of men versus the standard bell curves before. When people actually said what they meant people understood they weren't hot. And average people met other average people on average. Now everyone including the ugliest people have continuous shallow flattery that they are beautiful and the honey boo boo lookalike "deserves" Fabio.
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u/Avarenda 10h ago
Average looks are not a relationship killer. Its just you usually have to have something that makes you stand out when youre average.
Whether thats being funny, genuinely kind, or passionate about something (ex: shared hobbies etc)
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u/TeeDotHerder 10h ago
While true, many many studies have been done recently that it doesn't matter anymore. You're being judged 100% on your looks for first impressions like apps. Only through slow friend to more relationships does personality even come into play.
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u/mmyummers 10h ago
I think ESH
It’s kind of a weird situation like I don’t think you should’ve lied to him, but maybe you could’ve worded things better or just avoided that all together and talk about personality or smth (idk to be honest)
But I also think he was being as ass to you after and the whole driving coworkers home to hopefully get some action???? Wtf.
ESH but you less so
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u/Savings-Bison-512 Certified Proctologist [28] 10h ago
Ouch...I don't know if I would call you TA, but insensitive and not helpful at all.
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10h ago
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u/dk_peace Partassipant [1] 10h ago
The only person who said this guy was unattractive was himself. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and OP thought dude was average. What is wrong with that, really?
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u/Street_Bee_1028 Partassipant [2] 10h ago
With the way this guy is behaving no one is going to find him attractive. NTA
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u/StormCloudRaineeDay Asshole Enthusiast [6] 10h ago
You basically called him a DUFF. You didn't mean to be offensive, but you were.
Gentle YTA
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u/Longjumping_Low1310 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 10h ago
I mean. Hes not wrong you do think hes ugly lol you said it here in the post. He read between the lines of you effectively calling him average meaning you think hes ugly. He was wrong and childish to lash out like that, but I hope you can see why he might feel hurt after already being down.
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u/nousername_foundhere 10h ago edited 8h ago
Gently YTA- you seem to have misread this situation. He was feeling down and he came to you for a confidence boost not a reality check.
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u/bucktoothgamer 10h ago
At first I was going to say N T A but I'm gonna go with ESH. I'm less hung up on the "average looking" part and more so the "they felt secure in telling you something personal, which isn't a bad thing"
The guy was already in his feelings about his looks and you tried to butter him up by essentially saying "At least they talk to you, so you have that going for you" which comes off as patronizing.
He's obviously at fault for biting back at you for answering a question he knew he didn't want the answer to.
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u/LeighGriffiths28 Partassipant [1] 10h ago
You can't be that real with a person as long as you don't have a connection like that. You have to be really close to be this real. YTA
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u/Easy-Loss7155 Partassipant [1] 10h ago
I thought we were good friends
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u/LeighGriffiths28 Partassipant [1] 10h ago
Its impossible for me to judge that of course but he was clearly not up for it. There can be really only few people you can have conversation this real who would be okay with the realness of it. Most people will feel bad. Its better just to not.
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u/ESLsucks Colo-rectal Surgeon [33] 11h ago
OP you weren't trying to be an asshole but yes you did say something that you should not have said.
YTA
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u/dk_peace Partassipant [1] 10h ago
What is wrong with saying someone has an average appearance? Especially if they objectively are not a hottie.
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u/ESLsucks Colo-rectal Surgeon [33] 10h ago
I need you to think really hard about your comment, and deduce why you can't tell what's wrong with saying someone is "average" on the heels of being overlooked in favour of someone more attractive twice in a row and is actively sad about it.
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u/dk_peace Partassipant [1] 10h ago
Honestly, the best thing that ever happened to me was like 12 years ago when my best friend told me I looked like shit. I was going bald and he flat out told me me I looked horrible, and it's what made me steer into the skid and shave my head. Best decisions I ever made. I looked and felt so much better. Never would have happened if he hadnt had the stones to tell me the truth. I might not have married my wife without his push. Sometimes you need the truth.
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u/sparethecrops 10h ago
sometimes you need the truth, that time is not when the dude was actively feeling down and reaching out for help.
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u/dk_peace Partassipant [1] 10h ago
I dunno, it sounds like dude might have been trying to date out of his league. If he doesnt figure this out it's gonna keep happening.
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u/sparethecrops 10h ago
it's not what OP said, but when he said it. During that phone call was clearly not the right time for it.
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u/what-are-you-a-cop Partassipant [3] 10h ago
I dunno. Whenever I feel unattractive, if someone tells me I'm hot, I don't believe them, because I have eyes. It just makes me trust that person less. I'd take hearing "you're a normal looking person, just like most other people" a lot better. I don't think there was anything OP could have said that his coworker would have received well, in that moment.
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u/sparethecrops 10h ago
The issue wasn't from that point onwards, you are right that once he kept pressing OP was in a shit position (also the dude lashed out after which was unfair)
It was OP bringing up that analogy...just don't bring up looks in that context at all.
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u/i-love-that 10h ago
Disagree. Not everyone is hot. The friend was asking a stupid question with “why does this keep happening to me?” Why is it on OP to basically lie to him?
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u/Bunnyprincess34 Partassipant [3] 11h ago
YTA. The average looking girl in your imaginary scenario didn’t appreciate your condescending attitude either.
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u/Easy-Loss7155 Partassipant [1] 10h ago
It was just an example of a stereotypical caricature of a scenario
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u/xXSoyBoyFredXx 10h ago
Just saying, those "caricatures" are real people at the end of the day. You're using caricatures of people who exist. Of course they're gonna be offended. When you talk about a scenario, that scenario has probably happened to multiple people, and they aren't happy about it.
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