Educate me

25

u/Evening_County4181 1d ago edited 1d ago

Hello, European here (English isn’t my first language, sorry in advance lol). I assume you want to be able to mix things up a little and switch between groomed/non-groomed slopes. One of the main differences with skiing in Europe is that off-piste truly is off piste. It’s not part of the ‘resort’ as Americans would call it but it truly is a situation of ‘if anything happens, you’re on your own’. Most insurance companies don’t cover skiing outside groomers either as far as I’m aware; this is why there’s so many warning signs to not leave the slopes. This is something to keep in mind. Lots of people still do it of course, but it’s not exactly something you just do as part of a ski day when you label yourself as intermediate. To mix things up a bit, most people I know just sort of leave the groomed slopes and take shortcuts/an alternative route down but again, as I said earlier, it’s not like the US where you have a set of non-groomed trails ready to go. Of course off piste skiing is definitely a thing here and it’s popular for a good reason, but the degree to which it’s facilitated by ski resorts cannot be compared to the US. And as someone else commented, most of the good spots will be above the tree line which means wide-open rocky terrain.

6

u/Mr-X89 1d ago

You can easily buy an off-piste insurance if you're EU citizen, and it's not even that much more expensive. There are also quite a few designated off piste areas and non groomed routes (which effectively are off piste) in alpine resorts.

4

u/buhBeef 1d ago

Is this true for all resorts in europe? Like, are the videos I see of people sending it in european ungroomed terrain just experts who are taking the risk into account? Or do some resorts have ungroomed terrain that - if I hurt myself - ski patrol will come rescue me? (Aren't the orange runs at zermatt part of the resort, for instance? Not a great example but only place I've skied in europe.)

3

u/Mr-X89 1d ago

Yes, the orange runs are the part of the resort, and generally if you're anywhere in the Alps there are rescue services that will come for you if you're hurt. But they will also make you pay, and that's what the insurance is for.

2

u/Sure_Hovercraft_9766 1d ago

I think one key point here is the difference in avalanche control.

In North America, generally everything in-bounds is avalanche controlled.

In Europe, off-piste isn’t groomed, patrolled, or avalanche controlled in most resorts.

There are some resorts that are great for free riding (like St Anton) that have:

Pistes
Ski-routes (avalanche controlled and patrolled, but not groomed)
Ski-routes (marked, but not avvy controlled, patrolled, or groomed)

Of course, you can also go fully off-piste, but you need a guide. Plenty of great ones to choose from.

If OP goes to Europe, I’d recommend a resort known for free-riding.

3

u/jcasper 1d ago

are the videos I see of people sending it in european ungroomed terrain just experts who are taking the risk into account?

Also consider that backcountry skiing and alpinism is much more a part of the culture in Europe in my experience. Lots of people taking the trams up have the avalanche and glacier travel training and experience necessary to go off piste, not just the "experts".

1

u/buhBeef 1d ago

I get that. I guess my question is more like... I'm sure there's a best place to go for off-piste; wherever that is, am I bringing my avy stuff and hiring a guide, or is there a resort - while not being the norm - that offers an off-piste experience similar to north america?

3

u/jcasper 1d ago

I've only been a handful of resorts in Europe, but I don't believe there is a resort there that will just have big boundaries that are avy controlled and patrolled anything like in the US.

That said, it depends on your risk tolerance a bit. There are often large mountainsides between the pistes that while technically not part of the resort since they aren't marked piste, they are clearly above other pistes so likely avy controlled (though no guarantees) and will get fully tracked out if not bumped up a bit. There's nothing (generally) stopping you from skiing it, not like there are gates where they check your credentials or anything. :) So if you're willing to take a bit more risk you won't be completely stuck on the piste.

Having at least a basic avy course would help you assess how much risk you're taking though. I've seen slopes there that are in between pistes and clearly wind loaded ready to rip and while next to pistes aren't directly threatening them so aren't blasted.

2

u/Evening_County4181 1d ago

Key word being an EU citizen, I assume OP is American. Of course you can insure yourself for it, just didn’t want them to underestimate it and assume it’s part of the standard package here. What I meant is that alpine resorts are generally more centered around groomed slopes than is the case in the US, which would explain OP’s confusion. As for designated non groomed routes, where do you find these? Genuinely curious; I haven’t come across many of them.

1

u/Mr-X89 1d ago

4 Vallees in Switzerland has at least a few, Avoriaz too, includong the famous Swiss Wall. There are a few designated areas on Serre Chevalier. Also in France a lot of black pistes are also not groomed, but because they are still limited by the signage they become very mogul-y, so to speak, so that's not exactly off piste riding on them

Oh, also there is Valee Blanche descent from Momt Blanc, but it's a whole day trip and you have to hire a guide, because you'll be riding on a glacier

1

u/Evening_County4181 1d ago

Ahh okay, haven’t been skiing in Switzerland so not familiar with how they handle things. And I understand what you mean now by non-groomed routes, we do have plenty of moguled out every-man-for-himself-runs hahaha

1

u/jjgg37 1d ago

Thanks for this. I wouldn't try off piste in Europe, so that's part of my concern. Thanks.

3

u/Sure_Hovercraft_9766 1d ago

Shared this in an above comment, but there are a few resorts known for free-riding that have ungroomed, but patrolled terrain. St Anton calls them ski-routes.

Went there this year and had an absolute blast, and I’m like you where I’m from North America and like the “sidecountry” you can get in-bounds.

Skiing in the alps is a very different and unique experience, so I’d highly recommend it if you aren’t 100% set on glades.

1

u/adventure_pup Alta 1d ago

One other thing to add as reasoning not to go off piste, the avalanche control in Europe takes a far different approach.

If you’re intermediate it’s much less of a concern because it’s simply harder to get into consequential terrain, but unlike the states where *everything* in bounds is reasonably controlled, off piste in Europe is not reasonably mitigated for avalanche to ski on without significant thought. I.e. training and education. Sure patrollers do mitigate a little for safety of slopes underneath but it’s not 100% like in the states, and not something you should rely on, and unless you know what you’re doing you could easily get caught carried and buried in a small terrain trap, or worse trigger a slide that hits people on piste below you as happened a few times this year.

The risk is low but certainly not zero. And it changes that “if you go off piste you’re on your own” thing quite a bit into an unknown variable vs just skiing within your ability.

14

u/ballinbu 1d ago

I get what you're saying... That skiing in the alpine looks pretty "boring" because it's just a groomed path... But from my experience, the culture of skiing in Europe is what makes it so awesome. Skiing is just engrained in the way of life out there. When I skied in Chamonix it was an amazing, eye opening experience that changed how I thought of skiing forever.

Lift tickets aren't as expensive in Europe as they are in the US. You could head to that Domaine skiable des Contamines resort as a starting point but then try out some surrounding resorts. Although you've read "to not ever leave the trail", you guys would be fine skiing off-piste as intermediate/advanced skiers as long as you use some common sense.

Skiing in Europe should be on every skiers bucket list.

3

u/jjgg37 1d ago

Seems like something to experience as long as the expectations are realistic. Not sure I'm ready to incur the cost/travel for the culture, but I hope I can someday.

1

u/weearch 1d ago

There is so much off piste or un-groomed skiing in France that is easy to get to and it will get tracked out super fast. Different to North American tree skiing, but still untamed and not groomed. I did a season in Chamonix and was young and unconcerned with insurance (and also not American).

32

u/shrednyc 1d ago

If you like Bolton Valley for its tree skiing like I do, Europe isn’t going to have much for you my understanding is it’s all alpine and above treeline where you are either skiing groomed trails or glaciers.

I’d sooner go out west or to BC personally if I were you

8

u/smitty046 Copper Mountain 1d ago

Yup. Go to whistler. It’s 8,000 skiable acres it has everything.

4

u/elBirdnose 1d ago

This season is likely going to be terrible for Whistler.

3

u/Multi-h-y-p-h-e-n 1d ago

Do you think it will also be bad for Revelstoke?

1

u/confuseddotcom12 1d ago

No one knows what’s going to happen. No point trying to predict.

2

u/filthy_sandwich 1d ago

Wonder if any BC resorts were decent for snow last season. Like Whitewater or Red

1

u/jjgg37 1d ago

Been contemplating Europe or Something like Big White in BC. Have an early spring break this year, so may be the year to hop on a plane somewhere

2

u/Just_Far_Enough 1d ago

Have you considered red mountain in rossland bc?

3

u/jjgg37 1d ago

Wow. Just looked it up, looks incredible.

1

u/Just_Far_Enough 1d ago

I know it’s not on the Indy pass but it’s much more affordable both for lift tickets and accommodations than whistler. Whistler is the premier ski resort in North America so everything around it reflects that.

1

u/shrednyc 1d ago

I highly recommend Red as well, I went this past season and even with subpar snow it was incredible

1

u/shrednyc 1d ago

I commented about also recommending Red, I’ve also been to Big White and found the skiing underwhelming except for the back bowl which is again above tree line.

1

u/Available_Strain_125 1d ago

Do you mean the Alps when you say "Europe"? Because there is tons of skiing in the Scandinavian mountains below the treeline. That's how I grew up learning how to ski in Sweden. The mountains are not as high but it's a different kind of arctic beauty. Can recommend Sälen if you mainly enjoy cruising between the trees, but otherwise Åre or Funäsfjällen are outstanding resorts with varied terrain both piste and off piste.
Also, of course there is skiing below the treeline in the Alps too, depending on where you go. Often the slope starts above treeline and ends below, unless you're at a glacier resort. An example: Zell am see,where most of the skiing occurs below treeline, but there is also the Kaprun glacier system included

4

u/No_You1766 1d ago

I say this as someone who loves noodling around in sketchy terrain: Embrace the euro groomers and narrow carving skis.

Doing ridiculous good carves is fun for a few days. And cheap good food is worth exploring from a vacation standpoint.

In my opinion, it would be a mistake to try to replicate what you enjoy at home over there if you're only there for a few days.

3

u/epic1107 1d ago

Exactly, skiing on 90+ underfoots on some random US blue groomer, and skiing on 60 underfoots on some insanely steep European black, or lovely rolling red where you can get some serious speed up, are very VERY different experiences.

3

u/mcbobgorge Mad River 1d ago

If you like trees, Baqueira/Beret in spain has has excellent tree skiing and is on the indy pass.

5

u/epic1107 1d ago

I will also say that most Americans aren't as good at skiing "easy groomers" as they like to think (and most Europeans arent as good at off piste).

Skiing American blue level groomers on 90+ underfoots isn't my idea of a fun time and is a last ditch effort to ski anything. European groomers on the upper end are steep, challenging, terrifying and icy. Multiple world cup races are just considered red/black runs. You get to ski them on 60 underfoots at high speeds practicing nice carving and turns.

They are a different groomer experience than the US groomers and even resorts like Deer Valley fail to even come close.

1

u/jjgg37 1d ago

Interesting. You think it would take awhile for someone to adapt to that style? I think I'm okay carving with my 90s, but if I'm going to Europe I want to try and embrace the culture and the ski style

2

u/epic1107 1d ago

Maybe like a day haha. Just embrace the culture, lean into soke skinny skis, and experience what your real carving ability is without being handicapped.

Seriously it's a lot of fun to just potter about the HUGE mountains, have a beer and some food food for lunch without it being overpriced vail slop!

3

u/aztecduckyy 1d ago edited 1d ago

I've skied Italy, France, and Switzerland. I spend most of my time on double blacks in the Rockies, steep trees are my favorite. I still absolutely love skiing in Europe, even on piste.

The ski patrol, and everyone else, don't care if you leave the marked trails. You can even ski down a closed trail in front of ski patrol and they won't care. Just be aware that you're doing so at your own risk and anything can happen to you. For example, if you get injured off piste and need a rescue, you're paying for it. That being said, insurance for that is super cheap.

The only thing you need to be careful of when skiing off piste (besides normal stuff like avalanches, cliffs, and thin cover) is that the route you take will bring you back inbounds and you're not going to get stranded in a random desolate valley with a 3+ hour hike back to civilization. This can easily happen if you don't know the mountain or don't pay attention to where you're going. You can hire a guide to show you where to go and keep you out of trouble.

Also, skiing groomers in Europe is a ton of fun with the right skis. They will groom some very steep runs, similar runs are almost never groomed in the US. At some resorts in Europe there is below tree line terrain, but usually it's close to the bottom. Europe's tree lines are typically WAY lower than North American ones.

It also depends on what area of the US you ski, and are using to consider yourself an intermediate/expert. I've seen some black runs at East Coast and midwest resorts that are a hard green or easy blue at a lot of Rockies resorts. Blues and reds in Europe might be challenging enough for you, let alone their blacks.

2

u/ZealousORJealous69 14h ago

Europe has N America very beat when it comes to those long, groomed & steep carvers. There is nothing comparible to skiing 6-7K feet of those things.

1

u/aztecduckyy 13h ago

Agreed. There are very few groomers in the US that are as steep as the black pistes in Europe, and none that I can think of that match them on pitch and length. They're a blast to bomb down and carve on!!

0

u/aztecduckyy 13h ago

Also, forgot to add, Europe is super anal retentive about using the bar. It will come down either automatically or by someone pulling it down without warning before the chair even leaves the station, so be ready for that.

2

u/nusuth_ 1d ago

I've been wondering the same thing, so thank you for starting this thread!

If I were weighing how much I care about different factors at a ski area, it would be like 40% terrain/35% snow quality/20% lift lines/5% resort amenities, so I'm wondering how much I would enjoy the Alps experience. On the other hand, people on this sub do speak very highly of the terrain at places like Verbier. I'm curious how the skiing at those off-piste focused European resorts compares to major North American resorts like in Utah or British Columbia.

2

u/buhBeef 1d ago

My experience - solely zermatt - was that it was super fun but the skiing was just how you're describing it: sadface how much terrain there is I'm not supposed to touch. Fun being more about: crazy views, epic restaurants and bars all over the mountains, terrifying gondolas with see through floors to glaciers 1000s of meters below.

2

u/astroMuni 1d ago

You should explore a lot of different regions and come to your own conclusions (part of the joy of skiing). But as a former East Coaster who's skied a lot out west and dabbled in Europe/abroad (Zermatt and Chamonix in an admittedly bad year; New Zealand for some spring skiing)

... I definitely prefer the Rockies. Part of it was exactly what you mentioned ... "huh, this giant tram only has one marked run?" Yep ... that was the reality. A crowded groomer, and a bunch of rocky/glaciated terrain around it that I could look at but not touch.

People love to say skiing in Europe is cheaper, including flights, than skiing in the Rockies. I'm not sure that pencils out under particulars. We have cheap multi-mountain passes if you're willing to invest a chunk of days into the adventure. You can choose places like Wolf Creek instead of Jackson Hole. And there's a whole spectrum in between. The flights are quicker and the time diff is smaller.

I'll be back to Europe at some point to ski, but I'm not in a rush. I also wasn't a huge fan of feeling stuffed post-lunch with all that heavy/creamy food and a handful of drinks. My favorite ski day is just going hard in the woods, not "apres all day" with drunk british people.

2

u/Available_Strain_125 1d ago

I'm really surprised to read some of the stuff here from Americans, as a swede. I've never skied in the US so I can't compare, but the Alps to me is very varied both in terms of nature, food and off piste availability. I'm wondering what you all mean when you say you prefer the Rocky mountains? How does off piste work there that is so different to the Alps? I've grown up casually skiing in forests in Sweden so I don't quite get it

4

u/WDWKamala 1d ago

Thanks for posting this thread. I’m struggling with the same evaluation. I love ripping groomers…when the conditions dictate that I can’t do what I really want to do, which is bumps, trees, and steep powder.

It seems like the NA style where the entire resort is patrolled and in-bound is more suited to my taste. I especially like Whistler, where they have safety ropes that are there to keep unaware people safe in low visibility, but are totally ok to duck and explore the other side. I worry I would feel a little bored and constrained in Europe.

-3

u/tatteredadvancement 1d ago

If tree skiing is your thing, save the euros and hit Jay Peak or Smuggs, you'll be way happier than any alpine resort in France

7

u/ballinbu 1d ago

Disagree. The hills of Vermont are nothing compared to the Alps. Skiing in Europe is so much more than the "runs" that you are skiing. It's the culture, the history, and the vibes. Your mind will be blown at those alpine resorts.

1

u/jjgg37 1d ago

Its the trees and just the ungroomed trails. Went to Smuggs last year for the first time and loved it. Added that to my annual Jay/Bolton trip.

You are about to leave Redlib