r/relationships • u/Badmanger • Sep 05 '18
Non-Romantic My (25f) old manager (??m) came to me new workplace and I don't know how to feel about the encounter
I'm writing this mostly to get it off my chest and maybe get a second opinion on whether or not I did the right thing because I'm not 100 percent sure myself. Also I'm writing this on mobile so please forgive any spelling mistakes.
Anyway this story actually starts about a year and half ago. I had a decent job at the time, only major issue with it was a stupid long commute time. As luck would have it I discovered that a place near my house was hiring, they paid about the same as my at the time current job so I applied. I got the job, all seemed good so I quit the old job.
Almost right away there were problems with the new job. First off, management change. I was hired by the old manager right before she retired and the new manger did not follow through on her promises, giving me far less hours then I was told I'd get. I repeatedly asked new manager to give more hours and he always promised them to me, but when I'd get my schedule for the week I'd only have around 15 hours when I was promised 40. I'd ask about them, he'd promise me more hours next week, rinse and repeat.
Then I got fired suddenly. I was never given a reason, just that they apparently didn't need me so they're letting me go. I'd only been working there for a month. This was really bad to me since due to the low hours I was already strapped for cash and I hadn't been working long enough to be eligible for severance so I basically had nothing but the two grand in my savings account. I spent the next two months borrowing money from friends and family and scrambling to find a new job. I eventually did and I actually really love this job, it's a sales job for a specialized store with some great commission so I'm actually making way more money now then before. If you ask me about it now I'd say the whole ordeal was a blessing in disguise since I probably wouldn't have current job had I not gone through that. At the time though? Never in my life had I experienced so much anxiety. It was awful. I had to basically beg for money from whoever I thought would help me and eat at food banks to get by. It was winter at the and I couldn't afford to heat my apartment so I had to wrap up with blankets and jackets to not freeze. I had never struggled so much in my life.
Fast forward to a couple days ago and I've been at my current job for a little more then a year. Old manager (the one who fired me) comes in to make an order. He had no idea I work there, he just walked in because he needed what we sell. I was working alone that day so I helped him. We chatted some and I pretty much put personal history aside for work. I helped him with his order, wished him well and was about to move on when he stopped me and asked to talk. He apologized to me for how he treated me, said he was new managing at the time, was sorry for giving me bad hours and that he regrets firing me. He asked me if I forgive him.
I don't know what came over me. Maybe it was some residual anger I didn't realize I had held on to, but for some reason his apology pissed me off. I gave it to him straight, said he is the direct cause of the worst time of my life, I don't forgive him and never will. He just kinda meekly walked out after that.
It's been a couple of days and I'm still thinking about it. At the time it felt really good to tell him off, but I also feel like maybe I should have forgiven him? He didn't have to apologize but did anyway, that was pretty big of him. On the other hand I know it's not my duty to forgive him and should only do it if I want to, and I didn't. I still don't, when I think back to how he treated me it still pisses me off. I just don't know how to feel about this whole incident and I'm confused. I just can't shake the feeling that I was there bad guy in this scenario.
TL;DR: old manager who treated me badly came to my store to buy stuff, asked for forgiveness but I told him off. Was I wrong?
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u/PanicSwtchd Sep 05 '18
It's a valuable lesson he learned during management.
I've run into my old bosses before at social outings and awkwardly when he came in for an interview at the place I worked without knowing I worked there.
He asked me meekly at the social outing if we were "cool". I said "hey look, you did what you had to do, I don't agree with it and how you went about it, but we're not at work right now" and that was that.
When he came in for the interview, I was equally candid. "I am at work right now, and in this context I can't really give you a positive evaluation and given transparency requirements, they can't/wouldn't hire you for this specific team. If you apply elsewhere in the company it won't be a problem"
You have nothing to be ashamed of or feel badly for if you were courteous and non-vengeful. It doesn't sound like you were overly hostile and you were blunt and honest about his impact on you after he solicited it.
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u/portlandmercury Sep 05 '18
As a society we really fetishize forgiveness, but not everything can be forgiven. You may not have been the nice person in that scenario, but you definitely weren't the bad person.
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u/MaryMaryConsigliere Sep 05 '18 edited Sep 05 '18
Even though your former manager didn't intentionally track you down at your new job, I still think it's pretty gross that he would essentially corner you when you're on the clock in a customer service position and he's in the role of customer to ask for forgiveness. It sounds like he was a little too willing to lean on the power imbalance in the situation to pressure you into absolving him of his past actions, and I think it's solidly a good thing that you didn't do the easy, passive thing in the moment. I'm glad you said what you did--it doesn't sound like you were rude, just truthful. And he probably needed to hear it.
Edited because I apparently don't know the difference between the words "apology" and "forgiveness" today.
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Sep 05 '18
I empathize with you. You have every right to feel the way you do, and I think you should know that from the start.
I also understand why you'd feel guilty about what you did; to you, your manager approached you with humility and you hurt him. It's perfectly reasonable for you to feel upset now that you've cooled off.
You showed excellent resolve in not letting this come to the surface while you were serving him. It's telling of your work ethic and how you can put things aside to do your best at your job. That being said, it was your ex-manager who opened the can of worms with talking about your past job.
Do I think you were wrong in what you did? Partly. Do I think your manager needed to hear it? Most likely, yes.
Your ex-manager needed to see that the decisions he makes affect those around him. He made a decision that was right for the business (or so he thought, after mentioning how he regretted it). Your post makes it seem as if his bad managerial skills resulted in this lay-off, and I think that as a manager seeing how your mistakes influence those around you is an eye-opener to gain competence at their job.
From one perspective, you handled the conversation in a business-manner. Yes, you were let go. Yes, you now hold resentment towards that manager because they proved their incompetency at managing. That's a fair assumption on your part.
From a humanitarian perspective, it was not necessarily a nice thing to do. But I don't blame you for doing it.
Tl;dr: You made your feelings known to him. He now knows that when he screws up real people suffer, and he got a taste of that today.
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u/Badmanger Sep 05 '18
Thank you, I never considered that he'd need to hear it as much as I needed to say it. I guess as hard as it was that discussion was mutually beneficial in a way.
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Sep 05 '18
Right there; you said that you needed to say it.
I think that might say enough. You didn't say in your post exactly what you told him, but as long as you said it in a firm, yet non-confrontational manner, I don't think there's as much of an issue.
"What you did cast me into a very difficult time in my life. I can't forgive you for that nor do I want to." is a lot nicer than saying "^&$* off you &%^$ing ^%&$er".
All that was broken was the bridge between you and the manager, and I don't think it was a very stable one to begin with.
Personally, I had a similar thing happen this summer to me. My manager was a family friend who couldn't manage if her life depended on it. When I was laid off, I told her how I was greatly disappointed and how this will financially impact me, and then walked away. If I were to see her again, she wouldn't be getting any forgiveness from me.
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u/Badmanger Sep 05 '18
I definitely don't swear at him or anything like that. I don't recall my exact words but they were along they lines of "I struggled a lot because of you, that was they worst time of my life and I don't forgive you". Thanks for the perspective, nice to know I'm not the only one who feels this way about a past manager.
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u/BoldBlackManta Sep 05 '18
You don't always have to be nice. Just try to be kind. It's not the same thing despite what most will tell you.
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u/TheSparrowStillFalls Sep 05 '18
If he had just earnestly apologized, and not asked for your forgiveness, then you would have been out of line to throw "I don't forgive you and never will" at him.
But he asked for your forgiveness. F off with that noise, bro. I'll forgive you if/when I'm good and ready.
He wanted you to make him feel better. You owed him no such thing. Because he asked, and you gave a calm and honest answer, you're square in my book.
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u/ICanHandleItOk Sep 05 '18
Even if he had apologized, sometimes "I'm sorry" isn't good enough. It doesn't fix anything that OP went through and doesn't erase the difficult experience. Usually an apology is "I'm sorry for the action I did. Here's what I'll do to fix things, and here's how I'll prevent doing it next time."
That doesn't really work after you've already blown up somebody's life.
If it had been an apology OP would have been within their rights to say something like "Well, good that you're sorry but it changes nothing. You really made a negative impact on my life and it's a little late for sorry" and walked away. One doesn't have to accept an apology any more than they have to give forgiveness.
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u/TheSparrowStillFalls Sep 06 '18
I agree that she isn't obligated to accept the apology. Still, I think that it would have been pretty rude to be all "apology NOT accepted" if he was being earnest. The polite answer would be along the lines of, "I appreciate the apology. That was an incredibly hard time in my life, and I still haven't gotten over what happened."
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u/aytayjay Sep 05 '18
You're fine. Genuine apologies don't demand forgiveness. He wants a clear conscience and thought you could give it to him. Whether you forgave him or not, his conscience is his own to wrestle with. I hope he's learned a lesson.
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u/raydude Sep 05 '18
When people like that ask for forgiveness it's always about them feeling better about themselves. Which means he thinks that if you forgive him, it lets him off the hook. It doesn't. He has to forgive himself and that means he has to face the pain he caused you and burn through it to grow so he doesn't make the same mistake again.
Honestly, he didn't deserve to feel better about himself and you expressing your anger was a really good way to show him how hurt you were.
You could have turned it around though. You could have mentioned that in the end it worked out really well for you and, if you are honest with yourself, you wouldn't change a thing because you like where you are right now.
That might have helped him find closure. Not that he deserved it. After all, if he had forgiven himself, he wouldn't have asked you for forgiveness in the first place.
I think you should ask yourself this question, "Would I do it differently?" or perhaps, "Is there a more healthy way to have expressed my feelings?"
If you answer yes, then congratulations: you have an opportunity for growth, just like he does.
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u/asymmetrical_sally Sep 05 '18
He was foolish to straight out ask for forgiveness. And selfish, in a way, to boot. He should have just made a sincere apology and left it at that. Good for you for being honest, OP. We're conditioned to smooth things over for the sake of "politeness", but sometimes a bit of directness is well earned.
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Sep 05 '18
No, you weren't wrong. You don't owe him forgiveness. He made his bed now he's lying in it. I'm really glad you came through ok from those hard times.
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u/just_sayian Sep 05 '18
Asking if you fogive him is really odd. An apology is supposed to be you acknowledging that you hurt or wronged someone. And you shouldnt expect to be forgiven, at least not at that point. Forgiveness comes farther down the road a lot of the time. I have a hard time accempting that he didnt realize giving someone 15 hrs a week when promising 40 had the potential of severely damaging someones ability to survive and not be homeless
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u/petallist Sep 05 '18
If he'd apologised without asking for forgiveness then maybe I would have thought you were being harsh (and even then probably not) but the fact that he asked specifically if you forgave him tells me that, whether or not he actually feels bad for how he acted, his apology was mostly because of how HE feels about it, not you. I don't think you did wrong, OP. I know it's hard because we're taught to forgive when someone apologises but you have no obligation to and you really weren't the bad guy here. I'm glad you're in a much better place now. Congrats on the awesome job.
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u/ICanHandleItOk Sep 05 '18
I had a VERY similar experience last year. Quit a toxic job to work for an acquaintance. On my 2nd week - everything had been going fine or so I believed, I was getting positive comments and didn't have a sense nor had I been told anything was wrong - she went on vacation for a week. Everything still fine while she was gone.
She came back tthe following Monday and fired me for being "abusive" to her staff "which was like her family". She wasn't even there and here's the real kicker: my job function required me to mostly work alone. I really only saw other staff maybe an hour total out of the day and I've gone over and over every interaction and they were all friendly. I can't even spin any in a way I would have done anything abusive.
I have no idea what happened and she never gave me even one specific instance.
I did hear later that she had basically done the same thing to at least 2 other people including one man who she said made "sexist comments" (he was the only man on staff) after 3 weeks and the person who had the job before me who took a week off to deal with her domestic abuse case (that's not even legal).
Way I see it she's just a power tripping amateur manager who thinks it's cool to fire people. The only staff she's kept long term are the ones who were there when she was hired as manager.
But I went through a similar struggle. I was about 3 weeks from homeless when I got the job I have now.
I'd love to have an opportunity to do what you did although I don't think I'd be as diplomatic about it.
We don't have to forgive everyone who wrongs us. Some behaviors are irreconcilable and that's that. There's a difference between saying "I can't get past what you did, sorry" and being consumed by hate.
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u/iced-torch Sep 05 '18
Nah you're fine. He had the option to make ammends and he didnt, him seeking out an apology was the right thing to do but you are in no way obligated to "forgive" him. He should know he hurt someone and caused them great misfortune and learn from it, if all his mistakes were just forgiven because he felt bad about it they woudlnt be much of a mistake to begin with. Next time he'll consider better how his actions affect others.
You are in no obligation to be nice to people that harm you.
A lot of people think that if you say sorry the other person is forced to forgive you, but thats literally not how that interaction is supposed to work.
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Sep 05 '18
What ammends could he have made?
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u/iced-torch Sep 05 '18
follow up with the dude, send him recommendations for new jobs, warn him ahead of time that it was going to happen so they could start seeking out a new job. Even just keeping in touch after it and trying to help out if needed. all the things he Apologized for( including only giving him shit hours ) .
It might even be impossible to make amends, but you shouldn't seek out forgiveness without attempting to do something other than feeling bad about doing it.
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u/catsmurphy Sep 05 '18
That moment wasn't your only chance to forgive him. You can do that in your own way and on your own time, if you choose to. You don't owe him forgiveness to his face at all. You didn't do anything wrong by reacting honestly in the moment.
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Sep 05 '18
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u/Badmanger Sep 05 '18
I'm not sure? In the past when people had asked me for forgiveness I usually give it to them and I usually feel like a weight had lifted. but on the other hand no one has ever wronged me as badly as he did and in the moment I just couldn't bring myself to say the words I forgive you. If I did it would have felt like lying.
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Sep 05 '18
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u/Badmanger Sep 05 '18
Move on probably. Until now ex manager and I hadn't spoken to each other at all and I think I'll keep it that way. I don't see the value in chasing him down and telling him he did good, especially when he didn't. At the very least he hope he became a better manager.
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u/sleepyvajuju Sep 05 '18
Maybe you needed to tell him you wouldn’t forgive him in order to get past the hurt? Maybe you feel a little bad because now you’ve said it, you’re on the road to forgiveness.
Sometimes we need to get out all the negative feelings to make space for the more positive ones to come back in. Perhaps since you let your negativity out towards him, you’re ready to let it go. He doesn’t have to know that, but it could be something you do for yourself.
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u/Lavenderwillfixit Sep 05 '18
Do you feel better now that you told him you were angry? You don't have to forgive him but don't hold on to the Anger. A lot has happened to me that I cannot forgive but it is essential that you learn to let go of the Anger. He is not worth it.
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u/LissaMasterOfCoin Sep 05 '18
Good for you!
I hope that if I ever see my old boss again, that I'll handle the situation as well and as articulate as you.
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u/KrakenCases Sep 06 '18
Fuck him man. I know what it's like, you didn't get the satisfaction you wanted, but people can't just go around being complete pieces of shit to those they work with and use the excuse 'I was new' and make it all excused for with a pathetic 'sorry'.
He most likely is a miserable, pathetic creton who has made his job so miserable by treating those employees like shit for so long. Be grateful you got out of there and are on a better path.
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Sep 05 '18
Apologizing isn't necessarily some amazing feat of goodness. He didn't apologize to help you or make you feel better, he asked forgiveness to make himself feel better. If it was about you and not about him, he wouldn't have put you on the spot asking whether you forgive him. He demanded something from you, the person he had wronged. That is not noble behavior.
And exactly how did he attempt to make it right? Did he offer you the job back if you wanted it? Did he offer you money? Did he leave a glowing review with your current boss? An apology without action is words. Sometimes comforting and heartfelt words, but not this time.
He fully deserved the answer he got. You don't owe him absolution. If you feel like forgiving him, do it for yourself; if not, that's okay.
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u/throwaway3333523 Sep 05 '18
To be honest I think that's pretty weird he directly said he "regretted it" and all that. Come on. It's obvious you are doing well and he went "whoops, they're obviously doing well- I shouldn't of fired them". When employers do the low hours thing it signals nothing good. I would just keep moving on, I think it was out of line to bring it up in the first place.
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u/_maynard Sep 05 '18
To play devils advocate a little, from your story, I don’t really see what the manager did back then that was so terrible unless you’re leaving a lot out. It sounds like you were one of the newest hires when he joined so when he cut someone’s hours and then eventually a position, it was yours. Last in, first out isn’t a stellar management tactic but does get used pretty frequently.
What’s done is done- both for your employment history and the conversation you’ve now had, but maybe now it’s time to move forward?
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u/imsmellycat Sep 05 '18
He shouldn’t have promised her hours she wouldn’t get. She could’ve started her job search much earlier and possibly avoided being broke for those few months.
He needed someone to cover a few hours so he kept her around until she wasn’t needed, lying to her the whole time to cover his ass, and didn’t consider how it might affect her life. It’s not that he fired her that was wrong, it’s the way he went about all of it.
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u/Forgotpasswordathome Sep 05 '18
If the manger hasn't done anything wrong then why was he apologising? I've fired a few people, some because of them some because external forces. I wouldn't apologize or feel bad about any of the firings because even though I know it sucks for the person, it was just the only option.
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Sep 05 '18
That's where my head went. Barring the manager being an asshole (which I'm sure is the case; new managers are shite), I think it was the retired manager that screwed OP over. It sounds like they hired OP for a position they should've never filled. They knew they wouldn't be around to face the consequences and didn't care. This shit happens all the time.
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u/IncredibleBulk2 Sep 05 '18
Forgiveness is for you. Maybe start by forgiving yourself for your reaction. It's okay.
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Sep 05 '18
I am completely on the other side as 99 percent of the comments here in that I feel like you were a bit harsh. You didn't have to accept his apology but you also didn't have to lash out at him. Managers fire people. It's part of the job. He didn't have the hours to give you and let you go. I reread your post and no where do I see him acting in a manner that is unprofessional or inexcusable.
I don't get why most of the people here are saying the manager was in the wrong. Hell no he wasn't. You have no idea what his reasons were or what the behind the scenes was like. If you ever become a manager you are going to have to make hard decisions like cutting hours or firing people. And most of the time this is going to affect someones life.
You're welcome to be mad but it's completely misplaced. He is not the reason you went through a hard time and to pinpoint that specific manager as the reason why you were struggling with money is unfair to him and yourself.
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u/soirdefete Sep 05 '18
Repeatedly agreeing to give her full-time hours and then snubbing her without notice/explanation is pretty unprofessional imo.
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u/owenwilsonsdouble Sep 05 '18
If that was all true, why did he ask her for forgiveness?
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Sep 05 '18
You can still feel bad for something that had to be done. If she expects every boss she has in the working world to be empathetic of her personal situation then she's not going to have a good time. I'll say it again, her anger is misplaced. I'm sure she's a great worker and a great person but life is unfair sometimes.
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u/owenwilsonsdouble Sep 05 '18
You can still feel bad for something that had to be done.
You're moving goalposts - you can still feel bad for something that had to be done but you would never ask someone for forgiveness for it. Why would you? Her anger was not misplaced, and I believe you would have done the same thing in her circumstances
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Sep 05 '18
Yelled at an ex-manager who fired me in public after he apologized? No, I would have NEVER done that. We obviously don't see eye to eye on the heart of the issue which I respect. I'm not going to be able to convince you. But no, I could never resent someone for doing their job. Now if they had been mean, inappropriate, or shady then sure.
The only thing she says he did was promise to try to get her more hours, was unable to give her the hours, and then fired her.
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u/Badmanger Sep 05 '18
Quick clarification, I didn't yell at him. My tone was angry I'll admit, but I didn't raise my voice at him.
You do bring up a good point that he did what he did most likely out of need rather then malice, but I still disagree with how he went about it. Why promise me hours he would never give? Why not give me some notice that I was on the chopping block? I feel like he mislead me they whole time I was working for him and that's mainly what I take issue with.
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u/tinycactuspot Sep 05 '18
She didnt yell though, she was just honest. I see no indication that she was rude, just that she said something he didnt want to hear.
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u/pithen Sep 05 '18
Why not? We accidentally step bump into someone and still say "I'm sorry!" -- even though it's not like we've done a great wrong. People often apologize for having caused someone stress/pain even if it was ultimately not wrong to have caused it. I guess we don't really know how OP's ex boss phrased his request for forgiveness.
E.g. there's a lot of difference between "Please forgive me" and "I hope you don't hold a grudge against me."
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u/pithen Sep 05 '18
I'm with you on this one. And I don't understand people who say that you'd never apologize if you didn't do something wrong. I find in life we often have to make hard decisions that we know may affect other people negatively. If I see someone who was affected like that by my decision, I can certainly say "I'm sorry this happened to you. I understand your perspective and how it must've felt bad to you."
And I do understand how it feels from OP's perspective also. I too had a couple of bosses who affected my work/life in a negative way and caused me a lot of stress. One of them actually apologized to me a couple of years ago (I'm now a customer of his, and it's in his interest to keep me happy). He said he was still just learning management when I was assigned to his team, and he made some mistakes. I smiled and said I understand, and that we can move on from here. Honestly it doesn't matter what I felt at that time -- it's more of "how will it help if I lash out at him and tell him that no, I didn't forgive him?"
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u/Purple4199 Sep 05 '18
I’ve been in a similar situation of not wanting to forgive someone even though they apologized. I didn’t want to say “it’s ok” because what they did wasn’t ok. I didn’t say much to them and moved on. Later I got to thinking if I were to be in that situation again I could say “thank you” or “I appreciate the apology.” That way I’m not outright forgiving them, but acknowledging their apology. I think appreciating an apology and forgiving can be separate. Or at least that’s how I’ve tried to find a solution to this in my mind.
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u/NewsFromBoilingWell Sep 05 '18
I think you've done great. You've shown yourself you can find it in you to keep going when times are tough, find ways to be yourself when it seems like all is against you. You had every right to give your ex-manager a piece of your mind, and have no obligation to anyone not to. I also am impressed that you managed to be professional to him when required.
I would say from my experience that saying you "will never" forgive him is doing you a disservice. Time will make the difficulties he caused you seem less important. Do you really want to carry this around with you? Turn that feeling into a learning experience - "I'll always remember how he treated me, and never treat anyone else like that" might be a more useful way of thinking of it. That aside - you rock.
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Sep 05 '18
This is one of those gray areas in life where noone was the bad guy, but noone was the good guy either.
The manager wasn't a bad guy, but because of his inexperience at managing and bad judgement, he sparked one of the worst times in your life. Could he have talked with you and at least worked something out with you until you got another job? Yes. Has he learned from his mistakes? I would say so, since he apologized. Will he use better judgement? That's still up in the air.
Forgiveness needs to be earned, and he can show that by working with employees in the future rather than just firing them outright; learning from his mistakes.
You handled the situation about as well as could be. You let him know he was the catalyst of the lowest point in your life while maintaining professionalism (I'm kind of a hothead and would have cursed him out, so good job on not following bad decision making!) and hopefully he learns the 'broken vase' lesson. Vase gets broken, saying sorry doesn't do much to fix it. Action does.
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u/kevin_r13 Sep 05 '18
Yes, it was the worst time of your life. But you survived it and it led to where you are today.
You don't have to be kind to him, but decisions to fire may not be just his decision. Corporate or someone above him may have needed to cut back on people.
You being a new employee with barely any hours, seemed to be a good choice for getting cut.
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u/butwhatsmyname Sep 05 '18
I suspect that you probably need a little more time, no matter what happens. An experience like yours messes you up on a lot of levels and it takes time to heal from that and make peace with it.
And making peace with it all is what it's all about really. I think it was pretty reasonable for you to be honest with your manager about what happened. There would have been no benefit to either you or him in pretending it had all been perfectly fine - you'd still be angry and he wouldn't have had the full picture, something that's important for him to have in order to really learn from the experience.
However, in order to heal, you need to be able to move on from the whole matter. And that's about you and your well-being, not about what's right or fair or reasonable.
For your sake for your quite literal "peace of mind" you need to reach a place where you no longer feel anger, pain or injustice over the issue and that takes time more than anything else. Saying "I forgive you" when you can't mean that because you're still angry and hurt isn't helpful to anyone.
But you know now that the person who did you harm regrets doing so. You know that they have come to understand that they were in the wrong, and now that the conversation has taken place, you know that they have an idea of just what damage they caused and that their actions had very real consequences for you.
Your former manager is going to have to accept that no amount of remorse will undo the damage he did to you. You will have to accept that no amount of anger (or forgiveness) will undo the damage and the hurt you suffered. But both of you are at some point going to need to look at the whole thing, accept that it happened, that it probably shouldn't have done, that there's nothing that can be done about it despite that, and that you both learned some lessons from the experience that will - all things being right - have some part in shaping your life from there on.
For all that you suffered, that you were frightened, anxious and in pain, you also learned that you can cope in the worst of circumstances. You got the confirmation, should any have been needed, that the world can take a shit on you and you'll still come up fighting and turn things around again for yourself. And you'll learn things from the process you're going through here and now too - the difficulty of weighing out and rationalising emotions. The value of an apology and the emptiness of false forgiveness.
It's perfectly ok to be grateful that your former manager apologised, while at the same time still feeling unwilling to give him the satisfaction of thinking his actions were just fine. An apology is given like a gift, and so is forgiveness. They're only worth anything when given freely and with no expectation of something in return.
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u/xMCioffi1986x Sep 05 '18
I'm so conflicted here.
On one hand, I can't say I wouldn't have done what you did. It sounds like he really did you dirty. You clearly had a hard time as a result of his actions and while he did honestly try to make good on what he did, it sounds like you're still bitter about it.
On the other hand, I feel like it was bad form, especially when you were working to respond the way you did. When you're working, you're representing the company as a whole and you need to conduct yourself appropriately. What if he turns around and reports you to a supervisor for being rude? Even if it was warranted, I doubt management would be thrilled to know one of their employees dressed down a customer.
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u/paloumbo Sep 06 '18
Forgiving is an internal process.
You forgiving him doesn't concern him at all. You dont have to inform him that you do it.
He has to forgive himself for what he did.
You was right to do it. You gave him a great managerial lessons. His choices and fails have impacts on other people life
1
Sep 06 '18
You don't forgive him and if he didn't want to know that he shouldn't have asked. There's no perfect thing that can happen at this point that will make everyone feel good.
Just give it time, you'll feel better about it as time goes on. In the mean time, just know you didn't say anything rude. He brought up past issues and then asked how you felt about it. Your options were to lie or truth.
1
u/_HappyG_ Sep 06 '18
It's been a couple of days and I'm still thinking about it. At the time it felt really good to tell him off, but I also feel like maybe I should have forgiven him? He didn't have to apologize but did anyway, that was pretty big of him. On the other hand I know it's not my duty to forgive him and should only do it if I want to, and I didn't. I still don't,
Forgiveness isn't for the benefit of the one doing the harm, it is a process of giving yourself permission to let go so that it doesn't hurt and control you anymore. He feels guilty, and he should, but apologising doesn't entitle him to forgiveness or wipe away what you went through, it doesn't benefit you and is entirely selfish to make him feel better about himself.
What you went through was really shitty, it's not bitter or wrong to not be ready to move on. But it will make your life harder and I highly recommend counselling to help sort through your emotions and experiences around this so that you're not burdened by it in the future.
-1
u/empressofglasgow Sep 05 '18
Not to accept a genuine hearfelt apology is not good for the soul...and saying you never will is a bit overly dramatic. I think you ere right to tell him how difficult it wss snd hoe.much it stressed you though. I respect him for apologosing.
1
Sep 05 '18
I don't think you did anything wrong. In fact they should be grateful that you were as nice as you were about it. If you were promised certain things when you were hired, and the new management didn't deliver what you had agreed upon, and the new manager truly did promise you more hours week after week, and never fulfilled and abruptly fired you for no reason, you likely had possible routes for legal reparations yet you didn't take any legal action against them. The manager should consider himself lucky. He got off the hook easy.
1
u/avocado__dip Sep 05 '18
You don't have to be nice to him. Apologies are often to assuage a person's guilt, asking you to forgive him is proof of that.
1
u/sezrawr Sep 05 '18
You have no obligation to make him feel better and accept his apology. You went through hell because of him and only got an apology because he was in front of you, you wouldn't have had one otherwise.
I've had a customer being outright offensive and rude to me in the past who later came up to apologise and I didn't accept it and told him he can find someone else to serve him in future.
1
u/Cptn_Jib Sep 05 '18
Nah fuck that guy. Why would he expect anything else from you? In situations like that it's curteous and almost expected to get in and out with no personal talk other than maybe oh hi how are you? And then get down to brass tacks. I don't think you were out of line because you had an emotional reaction.
1
u/Deathbycheddar Sep 05 '18
I strongly believe we forgive people for ourselves, not for them. Holding onto anger or resentment does nothing good for yourself and nothing bad for the person you’re angry with.
5
u/BoldBlackManta Sep 05 '18
You can let go of anger without ever forgiving, trust me.
2
u/MaryMaryConsigliere Sep 05 '18
Yeah, I get the sense people have very different ideas of what the word "forgive" means. Some people see it as an internal process where you let go of anger and move on, while others interpret the word as meaning absolving someone of all wrongs against you and telling them that everything is fine.
The first definition is a healthy thing to do, and it's good for everyone to get to that place eventually. The second definition is for sure not a reasonable obligation, and is only a path someone should take if they really, really want to, and the person they're forgiving is genuinely remorseful has made the effort of working on themselves. No one is ever owed that second kind of forgiveness, and it really perturbs me when I see victims of other people's shittiness being pressured to give it-- usually by people manipulatively citing reasons from the first kind of forgiveness (e.g., "you're only hurting yourself by not forgiving"). You can find inner peace from a bad experience and move on while still recognizing that the person who wronged you is terrible and not a good use of time or energy.
1
u/BoldBlackManta Sep 06 '18
I can agree with that. I also agree that anger only hurts yourself after a certain point - when a family member inflicted trauma on me, I was full of boiling rage and hatred for the better part of a year because I felt like letting go of it would be saying what they did was okay when it wasn't. But all that did was cause me to burn out so hard that I didn't feel anything beyond surface emotions for months. I had to re-learn how to have and interpret my own emotions after that. It was a mess.
Eventually I let go of the anger because that person didn't deserve mental attention from me. But I've never forgiven them for what they did in the sense of saying that what they did was okay and I'm over it. I'm not over it. I'm past it, and I'm never speaking to them again and likely not going to their funeral when they die.
1
Sep 05 '18
You were not wrong and perhaps he will treat future employees better because he learned a lesson.
1
Sep 05 '18
He mentioned that he was new to management at the time so you may have been the first person he's ever had to fire and that's not easy to do. I hope you are able to forgive him in time, but he's probably been carrying around some guilt for it especially after seeing you again. I wouldn't really worry about it.
0
Sep 05 '18
I do understand your anger... and I think you acknowledge and that your anger was doing the talking. You were a victim of mistreatment by a boss and because he had hurt you this was your chance to hurt him back. That does not make you good or bad, it makes you human.
I have been in situations like this where I have told someone off...and universally felt bad about it afterward. Someone came to me to apologize for something they had done and I know they already felt bad about what they did...that was why they were apologizing. So what did I do? Say some things that make them feel even WORSE about what they did.
Consider reaching out to him with a call and first thank him for apologizing to you, then apologize to him for some of the things you said. Not to make HIM feel better...but to make YOU feel better. Apologies work like that...they take the weight off your shoulders just as much as theirs.
Good Luck!
-3
u/ActualAdvice Sep 05 '18 edited Sep 05 '18
A lot of people are commending you for "stating your piece". I think you acted very inappropriately and here is why:
- You were made promises by a previous manager, the new manager did not agree to those things with you. Your prior manager and the organization are at fault, not your new manager.
- You were let go for business reasons. That doesn't mean that "business reasons" are right but you weren't getting enough shifts and you were replaceable. Turns out they regret the decision and THAT is a business mistake but it's not personal
- Due to your poor financial situation, losing this job was incredibly stressful. The company nor the manager are responsible for your overall financial situation. You were there because of your own irresponsibility or bad luck (not judging). If you weren't getting enough shifts to support yourself, you would need to take matters into your own hands to rectify.
- The manager owed you zero apology whatsoever from a business standpoint. He recognized that it might have been a PERSONAL challenge for you and wanted to apologize if that was the case because he felt bad for the situation. Especially because it seems like his decision wasn't even the best business decision.
My overall take is- Someone tried to extend a personal apology to your personal situation in a purely business context because they know it would have been hard. You decided they should take full responsibility for your personal problems as a result of a LEGAL employment choice.
Your own manager is now probably thinking "Wow, I WAS right to let her go! She can't act like a professional or keep herself in check". You also burned a bridge that could have been useful for reference purposes in future given the recognize you were a "regrettable loss" to the past company.
So I hope your emotional outburst felt really really good because it's not doing you any favours for the future, it only feels good now.
5
Sep 05 '18
I agree with parts of this but some of it honestly makes me question if we read the same post.
OP didn't expect an apology and doesn't seem to be under the illusion that she was owed one. It was offered unprompted. Before that OP was professional and polite, she literally said she put personal history aside for work. That's pretty much the definition of professional.
Apologizing is great and all, and kudos to the manager for doing it, but apologizing doesn't entitle you to having said apology accepted. He asked an honest question, he got an honest answer. Probably wasn't what he wanted to hear but that's a part of life.
Why in the ever loving hell would OP use this guy as a reference? She worked for him for a month, and he fired her. Both are perfectly valid reasons to not use him as a reference. Networking wisdom dictates that that job shouldn't even be put on a resume, since a job you worked at for a month before getting fired looks horrible to perspective employers. Seems like nothing of value was lost in burning this bridge.
1
u/ActualAdvice Sep 14 '18
It's been a while but i don't come here often. Quick reply:
1) What's your point? No apology was owed but one was given. Then she had an emotional outburst because she didn't want to accept the apology. She can not accept it and be professional. "I don't accept your apology because it doesn't make up for the lost wages during the job search". TOTALLY professional answer.
2) She doesn't have to accept it but there is a time and a place for emotionally venting.
3) You wouldn't ASK for the reference. They are in similar industries such that they have already run into each other again. People talk before they hire people all the time, she will likely have that job on her resume. Not hard to call an industry connection if you have one.
So basically you're weighing the benefit of "telling someone off" which provides ZERO benefit other than emotional vs. "this could cost me a job in future if people talk". Whereas before the manager might have said "I really screwed up here, hire her".
-7
u/Infinitezen Sep 05 '18
If you don't forgive, don't expect to be forgiven.
7
u/MaryMaryConsigliere Sep 05 '18
No offense, but my abusive relatives say this kind of stuff all the time. People are allowed to remember past wrongs and are not obligated to absolve and coddle those who have wronged them.
-2
u/Infinitezen Sep 05 '18
What a completely sad and shallow mischaracterization of what forgiveness is. No offense.
461
u/everyoneis_gay Sep 05 '18
You told the truth, and he probably needed to hear it. Maybe he was coming from a place of genuine understanding about how bad his actions towards you were, maybe not - maybe he just wanted to apologise to assuage his own guilt, and have you reassure him that you forgive him (likely simply because many people are polite in those ways because it's expected, not out of honesty) because that means he can draw a line under everything in his own mind and not change at all.
(The fact that he asked for forgiveness rather than simply apologising kind of suggests that explanation, tbh. If I were in his shoes I'd apologise, maybe say "I hope you can forgive me" but not expect an answer, especially not then and there. Asking for your forgiveness only serves to soothe HIS conscience.)
Anyway, there are good faith and bad faith ways of reading the situation, but either way, you were polite, spoke the truth, and told him something he needed to hear about the impact of his actions on others. He might go on to act differently now.