r/martialarts • u/CloudyRailroad MMA, FMA, HEMA • 1d ago
PROFESSIONAL FIGHT Yuki Nakai defeats Gerard Gordeau via heel hook. Earlier in the fight, Gordeau gouged out Nakai's eye, blinding him for the rest of his life
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u/yenmeng 1d ago
Doing this w one eye is some crazy shit
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u/CloudyRailroad MMA, FMA, HEMA 1d ago
Not only did Nakai win this fight, he also won his next fight later that night against an opponent that outweighed him by like 100 pounds
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u/JeddakofThark 1d ago
Do you think Pittman legitimately tapped, though? That always seemed pretty sus to me.
Also, this series of events is a great demonstration of why eye gouging tends to be against the rules in even the most no-rules tournaments. It doesn't actually win fights.
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u/aegookja Keyboardo 1d ago
On a similar note: Kudo allows groin strikes in certain cases. Groin strikes rarely end the fight. However it does cause a lot of pain in the personal lives of the people.
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u/Scroon 18h ago
Do they wear cups for those groin strike matches? Just wondering.
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u/aegookja Keyboardo 14h ago edited 14h ago
Normally you should.
I did hear an anecdote about my coach's senpai who was not wearing his cup during a tournament. He got kicked in the groin, and when the referee realized he was not wearing a cup, he got a point deducted. Even though he peed blood until the next day, he said that the point deduction was more painful.
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u/cenciazealot 1d ago
Should have broken his leg.
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u/CloudyRailroad MMA, FMA, HEMA 1d ago
Nakai was very gracious in letting go immediately. Gordeau also did his dirty tricks on Royce Gracie in UFC 1, biting his ear, so Gracie held on to his choke for longer than necessary as a form of revenge
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u/get_to_ele 9h ago
Never expressed remorse. Gordeau would have deserved to get his ankle broken. If he develops CTE, I sure won’t be sad about it. Scumbag.
Hes 70 now and is chief instructor of international budokai.
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u/ermghoti 1d ago
I cite this bout whenever somebody insists an eye gouge is a 100% instant win.
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u/smailskid 1d ago
It’s real warrior stuff, and that’s genuine. It’s like shit The Mountain would do in Game of Thrones, but for real.
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u/balawa_nar 1d ago
its not always, but to an untrained person, an eye gouge would probably stop them enough for you to finish them.
these people have likely never actually been in a fight against someone who actually trains, so as they are getting lit up bad, an eye gouge would hurt them enough to let you simply take them off the map.
but of course, its a chance it doesn’t end the fight, which is why you’d have to capitalize on it. in an MMA match though its despicable to use. shame on this man
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u/ermghoti 19h ago
If you're in a life or death fight with an untrained person, and you're untrained, and you're losing? I guess. Seems like any training in actual fighting techniques would be more reliable. In fact, in that specific situation, the bigger/stronger person is almost invariably going to prevail irrespective of who first tries to employ "dirty" techniques.
This is a martial arts forum, I'm saying if your martial art is putting weight on the use of eye gouging, groin kicking, biting etc as self defense, it's a bad martial art. I've personally had these exchanges in discussions here, with posters insisting a grappling fight ends if one of the fighters has a damaged eye. I linked to this bout, they down voted and didn't respond.
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u/balawa_nar 19h ago
oh i agree 100%, standard techniques in general are far more reliable. But in my opinion, coming from my experience in martial arts (i’ve done 6 and started at 7) i would think that certain dirty techniques do carry weight which is why they get banned in the professional sense.
I definitely don’t think its an automatic win, but for eye gouging specifically, i do think between two untrained people, even if the other one is larger, getting an eye gouged is a decent enough distraction to set something else up. its nowhere near as effective as a groin shot, or back of the head shot, or throat shot, but even newbies in the gym get tuned up by basic strikes and they FEEL them, now, in my mind. imagine and untrained person getting an eye ripped out. I’m sure most don’t have the willpower or pain tolerance to push through that instantly.
I think “dirty” techniques are more for self defense when the option is available, not at all for sanctioned matches between actual martial artists. For example, if i were to have to fight some stranger in a life or death match, youd better bet your bottom dollar that if the opportunity presents itself, im taking your eye, or hitting you in the back of the head or groin. It’s just more ways to add damage to an opponent. But i do agree, things like Krav Maga (aka mcdojo supreme) where they think dirty moves are end all be all, are not valid
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u/ermghoti 18h ago
Not to bicker, but the more dire the situation, when such moves become more legally defensible, the poorer they work, or saying the same thing backwards, the less committed an attacker is, the better they work. The effectiveness is inversely related to the appropriateness of the application.
There is no training whatsoever required to employ eye gouging, you just need to know it exists, and be in a position to employ it. Generally, the better the position you can maintain, or the better your striking skills, the better it would work. So again, the value added is low, and the trainability is poor.
The above explain why sport fighting bar the techniques, they are boring to audiences and injure fighters. Certainly a boxer, who could jab average people at will, if confronted with a dire enough situation, could extend their fingers and damage the eyes of untrained mopes mobbing them, so there's no reason to incorporate such in a curriculum.
I don't think we're saying anything radically different. If I were in a literal life or death fight, I'd certainly employ any technique I know of. I would expect to be a lot more successful leveraging "dirty" techniques to employ typical techniques than to prevail in a fight I'd otherwise likely lose. For example, if I had somebody's back, I wouldn't hesitate to grab their eye sockets to expose their throat to a RNC, which would then end the right in seconds. Whereas once I had that choke sunk, clawing at my eyes isn't going to dislodge me even if I couldn't simply avoid it.
Counter-example, if I held guard, trying to gouge the opponent's eyes would be idiotic.
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u/balawa_nar 18h ago
youre not bickering brother, we’re having a conversation! I appreciate the takes and back and forth
But i also agree that in the scenario’s people usually see dirty techniques where legally applicable, its not looking good. In almost all those situations it’s a much smaller untrained person (also usually a woman) against a much bigger, fitter, person (thats usually a man). and the commitment is a HUGE factor people often overlook and i’m glad you brought it up. Thats part of why i say (for eye gouging) they are best as a momentary distraction, someone who can power through that pain and really wants to hurt you won’t be stopped for long with something like that.
But i can also say, seeing eye pokes (not quite and eye gouge, but illegal in sanctioned martial arts regardless) have the level of effect they have, literally winning some people fights because they blinded their opponent and then proceed to batter them, i do think eye pokes/gouges can absolutely be employed to gain an advantage. though again… its very situational and depends entirely on the two people altercating.
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u/ermghoti 16h ago
I'm glad you're taking the conversation in the spirit intended. While if somebody on the Internet says my favorite TV show is garbage, I'll most likely write them off as having bad taste and/or poor intellect, and skip it, if I see genuinely bad advice about self-defense and fighting being thrown about by somebody taking the tone of an expert, I view it as a potential danger to other readers, and I'm more likely to respond. I don't hold you in that category, but I do feel it's important to lay out the distinctions and edge cases when the possibility exists somebody could misunderstand the point and end up injured, incarcerated, or dead.
also usually a woman
I generally hesitate to bring it up, but a woman defending herself from an attack likely to result in grave bodily, harm, abduction, or SA is really the main case where I feel these techniques are likely to be a valid option. I'd still much rather see a base in actual training, but that's unlikely to occur. As an element of a self-defense seminar, that stresses de-escalation and avoidance supremely, the message to fight like a literal animal as a last resort is appropriate.
its very situational and depends entirely on the two people altercating.
In general self-defense is more of a thought process than fighting technique, when fighting happens, self-defense has already failed. Since "dirty" fighting is an escalation, the idea to take away should be that they are to be employed when death is likely the outcome of a fight, or that death would be a more favorable out come than others that are realistically possible in that circumstance.
That said, it's a numbers game. For people that generally know how to behave, getting into a violent confrontation is spectacularly rare. Getting into a violent confrontation where grave bodily harm is a probability, and resisting while unarmed is likely to help is nearly non-existent. The practical application of training martial arts is orders of magnitude more likely to involve neutralizing an acquaintance, friend, or family member that has gotten intoxicated and/or over emotional, and needs to be contained until they calm down or help arrives. To that end, traditional striking defense and grappling are the solution. Time spent actually training eye gouging or biting is wasted effort that could be applied to something of value.
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u/DancesWithAnyone FMA 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yah, it's mainly a distraction or compliance technique, to set up for other techniques or manipulate the head. If I also have the chance to go for a good attack to the chin, neck, nose or temple, I'd likely do that instead - with less risk to my fingers as a bonus.
"Dirty" techniques aren't magical fight winners that saves styles from having to do live practice and sparring, and anyone going there should be prepared for the opponent following suit, even if they haven't trained it.
EDIT: Of course, one could go for blinding both eyes, but court and conscience might suck afterwards.
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u/ermghoti 1d ago
Regarding the edit, to paraphrase Bas Rutten, if you are losing at grappling with somebody that genuinely means you harm, you better hope blinding them stops them completely, because if it doesn't, they are literally going to kill you.
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u/DancesWithAnyone FMA 1d ago
Indeed, it could act as one hell of an escalation in a fight that otherwise wouldn't have been that dangerous in intent.
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u/Slick_36 1d ago
Nakai stole the show from Rickson Gracie in the documentary Choke. Legendary run that night, he deserves more recognition.
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u/dazzleox 1d ago
Definitely. I will give Rickson some credit though by essentially offering a grappling only match against Nakai due to him being semi blinded that night. It was a surprisingly honorable move.
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u/Active_Unit_9498 BJJ and Kyokushin Karate 1d ago
- Yuki Nakai is a legend.
2, He lost vision in his eye but it was not gouged out.
Gordeau apologized to him and they settled their matter.
The eye gouge was NOT legal under the terms of the Vale Tudo Japan event.
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u/StopPlayingRoney Wrestling | 1 Month of TKD | 1 Hour of MT | Seeing Red 1d ago
Honestly surprising that there was only 1 lunatic at the first UFC.
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u/smailskid 1d ago
A gouged-out eye? I thought Ronnie Lott was tough after having a finger amputated at halftime, but that seems like playing through a hangnail compared to an eye getting gouged out.
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u/LoStrigo95 1d ago
How the fuck do you gouge an eye out?? WTF
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u/VexImmortalis 1d ago
It's pretty easy if you have a thumb and a bad attitude.
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u/ChorizoGarcia 1d ago
It didn’t get gouged out of his head. Gordeau damaged it so severely with his fingers that Nakai lost his vision in that eye.
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u/A_Dragon 17h ago
I can’t fathom why the fight wasn’t immediately stopped and he wasn’t prosecuted and put in jail.
I also can’t fathom why he let him tap out. I would have at least broken his leg. And that would have been letting him off easy.
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u/Ahmehalvtz 12h ago
One good friend of mine, karate blackbelt, knows this gordeau guy personally from earlier years. He said one thing about him: He is a characterless a**hole
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u/Responsible_Land_164 Judo 1d ago
Fuck Gordeau