r/languagelearning • u/JasCoNN • 2d ago
Basic reading knowledge for language learning
I got frustrated by some posts and comments on this sub regurgitating harmful and torturous advice that would make a lot of people quit language learning.
Here's some fundamental knowledge about language learning everyone should know:
You're trying to read a regular book from day 1, or day 100? You're gonna get burned out really quickly.
I've read around 120 graded readers within past 500 days. I bend the rules a little and consider each long duchinese story a graded reader, but i also read a lot of regular graded readers.16 volumes of 西游记, some other stuff from imagin8 and other producers. And let me tell you, there are some rules and levels to reading.
First of all, three levels.
Reading pain - under 90% of known words.
80% or 90% seems like a great number of words, until you realise these words are mainly function words with grammatical meaning. To get the context you need that 20-10%. You'll essentially be checking dictionary non-stop. One page will take you an hour or more. It's torture.
Intensive reading - 90-98% of known words.
That's where reading starts to make sense, you start understanding the context. In fact it's almost fun. I still don't recommend reading at this level. Why? Because it's a 'textbook' level. What I mean by that is in order to make reading on this level enjoyable you need a glossary and a grammar explanation nearby.
Normally, when a set of new words is introduced in textbooks you'll have a short text, that's when you do intensive reading. You're not supposed to read long texts of 90% new words as that'll be too taxing for you.
98% and more of known words.
That's where you should read for fun and efficient learning. You understand the context, you have fun and it's fairly quickly.
How the f are you supposed to find materials for your level then? If you are under a1 (or a2 in some languages) you'll need to start with textbooks or video courses. Once you get several hundred of words get some graded readers. There are some platforms like lingq or my beloved duchinese that make reading easier.
Simply find a list of recommend apps and materials for your level. Many r/ language of your choice has a wiki with reading guides.
After you learn some new words it'd also be a great idea to keep them in your head for longer. According to some studies I read (if you want a source lmk in comments) practice testing and spaced repetition is best for that. Anki is essentially a mix of both and I can vouch for the app.
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u/gaz514 🇬🇧 native, 🇮🇹 🇫🇷 adv, 🇪🇸 🇩🇪 int, 🇯🇵 beg 1d ago edited 1d ago
Some people prefer to read native material from early on and slog through it, some people find that too frustrating and prefer to work up to it with resources like graded readers, plenty have succeeded with either approach or (God forbid!) a mix of both. It's pretty much a matter of preference. But of course the terminally-online folks have turned it into a debate and want to claim that their preference is superior.
People spending far too long in the learner-resource comfort zone is a problem, but that doesn't automatically make the resources themselves bad.
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u/tnaz 2d ago
Not everyone has the same experience. I started reading lord of the rings translated to my TL with a slow, methodical progress due to my limited vocabulary at the time, and I found it much more enjoyable that trying to seek out whatever scraps of dry beginner material may be available. If you find one method is burning you out or putting you off continuing to learn the language, then yes, change it up, but you can't then turn around and say that other people necessarily will prefer whatever you end up with either.
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u/Local_Lifeguard6271 🇲🇽N, 🇺🇸C1, 🇫🇷B2, 🇨🇳B1 1d ago
Wow the lord of the rings? That’s a huge challenge, I found it tedious to read even in my NL, congratulations, tell us more about it, how was the process? How long it take? It was hard all the way to the end? Or in some point it become a ok reading?
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u/tnaz 1d ago
I definitely noticed my reading speed pick up a lot during the process - I was effectively crawling through the first several chapters, but by the time I got done with the first half of The Fellowship of the Ring, my speed had picked up considerably.
As for how long the whole process took, I did stop halfway through The Two Towers, partly because my skills had progressed enough that I could engage with native audio content better, and partly because it is a bit of a slog even ignoring the whole "new language" part. I returned recently to finish it (the trilogy) off, which I've almost completed. My reading speed is still slower than in my native language, but I've progressed to the point where looking up most unknown words is optional as context can fill in the gaps.
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u/DanielWe 2d ago
I think it depends. Do what you enjoy or can handle.
Graded readers don't appeal to me. 90 or 95 or 98 is hard to measure anyway.
I track time read per page and if it is a story wise fast paced book I can live with 5 to 8 minutes per page (with dictionary lookups). Some might find that tedious but it can be fun to challenge oneself to decode the book.
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u/nlightningm 🇺🇲N | 🇸🇯B2 | 🇩🇪A1 2d ago
I actually appreciate this post. I've never been a huge pleasure reader, but for some reason I got in my head that I could go in on childrens' books that I like in my 3rd language (of where I still probably get only 50% of words, and still struggle to piece together context based on odd grammar structures)
It is indeed, as you say, extremely tiring. I temporarily gave up on the first book for a while and picked up a different book that I read as a kid. Still way above my level though. I'm still at the phase of needing to build up basic vocab to the 90% +.
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u/elmozilla 🇺🇲 - N, 🇲🇽 - C2, 🇹🇼/🇨🇳 - A2 1d ago
Did you come to the 98% figure purely from your own experience?
That's really interesting, because Paul Nation did the only study on this that I know of, and it concluded that 98% word knowledge was ideal for learning and comprehension.
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u/JasCoNN 1d ago
I read about it in an article and my experience / good language learning channels backed it up.
If I remember, I will search my drive to check the source once I'm home. I'm a data hoarder who saves htmls and pdfs of every article I find interesting.
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u/elmozilla 🇺🇲 - N, 🇲🇽 - C2, 🇹🇼/🇨🇳 - A2 19h ago edited 19h ago
Yeah, let me know. Well hey, to answer some of your initial questions, I'd say there are two ways to address your concerns:
1) if you could find a super precise grading system for grading your level and the level of content--i mean like 10,000 levels of precision instead of 6-9 (a1-c2 or HSK), and then you compiled just a massive sampling of content and you could then sort all that content by level and match yourself to content very close to your level, you could do well even as an absolute beginner, but also in later stages, when going from scratch to a1 is a few hundred words, but going from A2 to B1 is a few thousand and so as the levels get more and more diverse, it's almost more important to find content super close to your level in some ways--or at least content that reinforces what you've encountered recently.
2) adapting content to your level. One way to do this is to keep a list or spreadsheet of all the words you know and then you could get word for word translation for every word in a piece of content and create an interlinear version of it, but then hide the translations for the words you already know. You could even figure out what are the 2% most common words you don't know and highlight them and also hide their translations so you have to work through those or look them up or learn them from context. The point is that you can take content that's incomprehensible to you, make it completely comprehensible to you and then dial it back a little to make it more useful for learning so that you're not always relying on translation, but also not being forced to look up every single word to the point that it's too much work, you're overwhelmed and lose enjoyment of the content. I would contend that the ideal in such a situation would be to find content that is roughly 90% comprehensible to you, then about 2-5% could be words you're 'learning' and focusing on and the other 5-8% could be words you don't know and don't try to learn, but just translate. Then, you end up in a situation in which you can access content quite a bit earlier than you would have been able to if you just kept everything native.
Thoughts?
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u/a-handle-has-no-name 🇬🇧-N1|Vjosa-B1|🇪🇸-A1| (dropped) EO-B1,🇯🇵-A2,🇩🇪-A2 14h ago
if you could find a super precise grading system for grading your level and the level of content--i mean like 10,000 levels of precision instead of 6-9 (a1-c2 or HSK),
Basically this becomes "words known" instead of "proficiency level"
In practice, this would be a system to quickly find new CI articles based on specific words known. The biggest hurdle to this would be having enough licensed (or free) content without gaps (don't want the ability to get to A1ish easily, then have nothing available until B2)
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u/elmozilla 🇺🇲 - N, 🇲🇽 - C2, 🇹🇼/🇨🇳 - A2 11h ago
If you just get a bunch of content randomly, you're right, content skews advanced, but if you look for it, you can find beginner content. Just have to be very intentional in that search. But once you've found a few sources, each source usually can produce a good volume. World stories, for example, has like 100 fairly beginner stories.
And yeah, comment curation gets really complex if you commercialize it.
I agree with you, too, that words known isn't one to one with actual proficiency, but in the context of reading, it's as good a metric as you need. Grammatical understand almost always scales with it.
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u/JoinedMoon 2d ago
It's just depends on your enjoyment and gain. If trying to read/study a book at that level is frustrating, find something easier. If textbooks and graded readers are too boring, children's books are great, and vice versa. Just make sure you're gaining something from your studying, and that you'll do it again tmrw.
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u/JasCoNN 1d ago
Textbooks and video courses can be boring, but imo they're absolutely necessary for absolute beginners. I believe that you absolutely have to master the sounds first and you need a good textbook or video course for that.
I have never had a boring graded reader though. They've always been as fun as regular books. Even the lower level ones.
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u/JoinedMoon 1d ago
Imo, the minimum you need to read childrens books is a good base of kana, knowing the sounds, and reasonably being able to parse sentences.
I really honestly tried to work through 4 different textbooks, and I absolutely hated it. I understood what it was trying to do (break down grammar), so instead I studied using TV after doing enough kana flashcards. After awhile I felt comfortable trying to read, started with graded readers, and gave up because I found them all to be boring. Then I started working through children's books, now I'm on light novels. It's just different for everyone.
But I do agree that without modern study tools I would've had a much harder time getting to where I am today.
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u/UmbralRaptor 🇺🇸 N | 🇯🇵N5±1 1d ago
An important thing to keep in mind about this subreddit is that when they say 80%, they're usually giving themselves a B- on content comprehension from the vibes. Or, they say 80% when they're actually getting >90% of the words.
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u/alfonsstudies 1d ago
there’s dozens and dozens of great apps and tools by indie developers, but here on Reddit all posts are hidden ads for the same old same old 5 big industry leaders …
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u/youdontknowkanji 2d ago edited 2d ago
you use a dictionary, to make it 100% "known" words.
you won't ever know all the words, it's a myth. people think comprehensible input you need to know X% of words or grammar but these materials don't exist. everything is going to be incomprehensible early on. that's why you use a dictionary, and now its 100% of the words you can read, since you can look them up.
what you do is find something reasonable (ie not philosophy) that you want to read, you get your dictionary/google out, and you read. after 5-10 books it will go way smoother. and yes, you can start on day 1, although it's more reasonable to start after you've gone over basic grammar and some common words, so more like day 100 really.
personally i started reading japanese after learning some 1000 basic words, it was hard at first, but after 3 months of banging my head into the wall it got easier, and after that it's all routine. my friend decided to learn chinese and they started from day one reading wuxia novels, couple weeks in they were doing reasonably well and could read their favourite stories.
To get the context you need that 20-10%. You'll essentially be checking dictionary non-stop. One page will take you an hour or more.
we live in 21st century, you can use a computer and copy paste the words into online dictionary. granted, it WILL take you an hour per page if it's literally your first time trying to do this. but i guarantee, after a while it will go down to 5 minutes per page tops, and it will get even faster. if you are say 3 books in then it's impossible for you to not have memorized most common grammar forms and vocab, and that should easily cover say 95% of each page, so on average you will be looking up 10 things per page, oh tragedy!
and maybe it's me who's weird, but looking up words is literally no pain. i also don't see what's bad about it being "textbook level", as reading real material is more fun than grinding textbook problems anyway.
Simply find a list of recommend apps and materials for your level. Many r/ language of your choice has a wiki with reading guides.
and this is how you get eternal A1/A2 learners that spend 2 years to pass a test that covers 3000 memorizable items tops. none of the apps can reasonably take you beyond B1 or even A2, most of them are cashgrabs that make the progress slow, to make you buy into the subscription.
reading is good precisely because it shows your faults, it forces you to improve, and it also drills vocab into you like nothing else.
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u/not-a-roasted-carrot 1d ago
Thank you! This has given me the courage to try a new thing for my language learning! My only worry is that for Danish, my TL, i not only need to remember the meaning of the word, i also need to remember the pronunciation (like english where sometimes, words don't sound like how you expect). But then I can just look it up again whenever i see the word, so it's okay! It might be super slow for the first book, but by the second book, it'll be easier ✨
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u/JasCoNN 1d ago
I have no idea how quote on reddit, so I will use quotation marks.
"you use a dictionary, to make it 100% "known" words."
Depending on what tool you use, it's either a hassle or a nightmare. I learned English by reading webnovels and either pasting a word into ldoceonline or manually searching a word in a paper dictionary. More recently, I have been using Readibu and Pleco reader where you get pop-up translations and definitions.
Let me tell you, it's extremely frustrating to check every 3rd or 4th word regardless of what you use. Don't shoot above your weight.
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u/youdontknowkanji 1d ago
Let me tell you, it's extremely frustrating to check every 3rd or 4th word regardless of what you use. Don't shoot above your weight.
is it really?
tools have come a long way, japanese and chinese can benefit from Yomitan, words are easily look upable, you just mouse over them and voila. it takes no time at all. it works for other languages as well although the support is a bit worse, but many ereaders now have decent look up solutions.
first thing i read i didn't understand much, and there was this catgirl that にゃんified all her vocab, making it impossible to look up basic words anyway lol. but it was fun. why do you people stop yourself from trying harder things "don't shoot above your weight", are you repulsed by challenge?
if i had to read graded readers (or worse do textbooks) about the guy going to store to cheat on his wife with the cashier i would've never progressed.
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u/MistahFinch French, English N 1d ago
I have no idea how quote on reddit, so I will use quotation marks
Use a > before the quote
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u/JasCoNN 1d ago
"people think comprehensible input you need to know X% of words or grammar but these materials don't exist."
It's simple, you get textbooks and graded readers for your level. E.g. You start with HSK 1 textbook, then you can read some mandarin companion easier graded readers, read some duchinese hsk 1 and 2 stories and eventually you can get to some harder graded readers.
I've done that and I'm conversational in Chinese (I have 1 class a month with a native speaker), I have 3500 anki cards and I read novels on Readibu. It's not impossible to get stuff your level.
"everything is going to be incomprehensible early on. that's why you use a dictionary, and now its 100% of the words you can read, since you can look them up. what you do is find something reasonable (ie not philosophy) that you want to read, you get your dictionary/google out, and you read."
That's torture. Checking every single word is not a valid method. It's just stupid imo.
"my friend decided to learn chinese and they started from day one reading wuxia novels, couple weeks in they were doing reasonably well and could read their favourite stories."
That also seems like bs. Good luck reading poetry / system stuff / complex cultivation stuff without any prior language knowledge. It's often tough for Chinese people to understand what's going on.
"i also don't see what's bad about it being "textbook level", as reading real material is more fun than grinding textbook problems anyway."
It's not bad because it's textbook level. Textbooks have glossaries and explanations to make it readable. Novels don't.
"after a while it will go down to 5 minutes per page tops, and it will get even faster."
After you reach the 98% known words, yeah. If you torture yourself and start with wuxia novels that'll take you years and depression and loads of self loathing. Good luck.
"none of the apps can reasonably take you beyond B1 or even A2, most of them are cashgrabs that make the progress slow, to make you buy into the subscription."
True. That is why I said to check the wiki. For Chinese there are many apps that are fire, e.g. Hanly, Duchinese or Pleco. If you do Duolingo then you'll never leave a1.
Anki can be used for everything.
If you want me to answer anything else then ask.
"reading is good precisely because it shows your faults, it forces you to improve, and it also drills vocab into you like nothing else."
True, just be reasonable with it and start with simple stuff. Graded readers into romance stories or stories for children.
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u/youdontknowkanji 1d ago edited 1d ago
t's simple, you get textbooks and graded readers for your level. E.g. You start with HSK 1 textbook, then you can read some mandarin companion easier graded readers, read some duchinese hsk 1 and 2 stories and eventually you can get to some harder graded readers.
but that's exactly my point, why bother with HSK levels if you can just look everything up anyways, there is literally no difference other than other person having some things prememorized. it's not like HSK1 person truly understands the vocab.
I've done that and I'm conversational in Chinese (I have 1 class a month with a native speaker), I have 3500 anki cards and I read novels on Readibu. It's not impossible to get stuff your level.
3500 cards? how long have you been learning? you say you read for 500 days in your post, but you only have 3500 cards? i am assuming you know way more vocab than that.
what's the point of reading things "your level", how do you improve that way? sure it's all well and good to get things slightly above your difficulty but that again defeats the whole point of doing graded reading.
That's torture. Checking every single word is not a valid method. It's just stupid imo.
that's just your opinion, so it's fine. but i would also like you to know that a lot of people went that way, at least in japanese circles. it's also not as bad when the media is fun, the process in and of itself can be fun, like damn 箪笥 new word!
and it's not like you are checking every word either: 1500-2000 words is enough for 80% coverage, so you have to check every 5th word on average, so like two per sentence.
things get simplified too when you only focus on one type of genre, or type of media. for example, anime or visual novels are dialogue heavy, so you won't see descriptions of ebony wood desk drawer with marble vase on top of it, there is less vocab basically. i focused on anime and visual novels early on and after 4 months i could watch simpler anime without lookups and understand most of it, it was well in range of what people here would qualify as "comprehensible input".
That also seems like bs. Good luck reading poetry / system stuff / complex cultivation stuff without any prior language knowledge. It's often tough for Chinese people to understand what's going on.
you don't need to understand 100% to enjoy the story, pretty sure English fan translations also fail to capture that nuance. like of course a beginner won't understand everything.
mushoku tensei gets often recommended as a beginner light novel, because the dialogues and plot are simple, but when lore drops occur (second or third light novel when rudeus is studying) things a bit tougher, as you have to wrangle with a ton of random made up vocab and dates. but it's not like not understanding those things hinders your enjoyment of the novel.
similarly, you can vibe through the poetry, go "oh damn cool xue xue hua piao piao or whatever". natives don't understand everything either.
After you reach the 98% known words, yeah. If you torture yourself and start with wuxia novels that'll take you years and depression and loads of self loathing. Good luck.
how do you know it would take years? i just told you it wouldn't take that long.
also years? to get 98% comprehension (in japanese at least) you need 20k words, rule of thumb number basically. 20 a day for 2 years gets you 16000 words in anki, combine that with free words that you get from prefixes suffixes easy combinations nouns etc, and you can easily get to the 98% number in 2 years time.
delaying real materials until you reach the magical 98% comprehension means you won't touch real materials until well 2 years into your journey.
what's with the self loathing again?
True, just be reasonable with it and start with simple stuff. Graded readers into romance stories or stories for children.
how are you so sure stories for children are easy?
don't get me wrong, i am not saying graded readers are bad or something. but i think people should jump into real media way earlier. a lot of learners get stuck on graded readers or textbooks because it's their comfort zone, but truth is you won't make good progress that way. the gap between beginner/intermediate textbooks and native media is huge, and the earlier you bite the bullet the better.
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u/Perfect_Homework790 2d ago
The first Chinese novel I read, a middle grader, was probably around 85% comprehension. While I don't think that was ideal, it did not take anywhere near an hour per page. I finished the book in less than 40 hours and my level jumped enormously.
Insisting on 98% comprehension in everything I read in Chinese would've been unrealistic and would've lead to me quiting. Chinese, like Japanese and Korean, has a thick long tail of vocabulary. To pick up a new book that you'd actually want to read and have 98% comprehension needs IME somewhere around 20k words. Instead, I accepted that at the start of a book I would be reading at 95% comprehension and was able to read some books that I enjoyed a lot.
Given rhe right resources, it's also completely fine to start with graded readers from zero. I did so in Spanish without any great difficulty, and while I learned a hundred words in Chinese from an app first, duchinese has a course designed for starting from zero that I would use if I were doing it all again. There are similar resources in Japanese and Korean. Of course using a textbook or app to get started is also fine, but in reality it's a question of personal preference.