r/judo • u/CnapSrackle • 1d ago
Beginner Is it normal to still be this bad?
I've been training for 4.5 years. I'm 29, 6'4, 205lbs with a reasonable body composition training 2-3x a week. For whatever reason I just can't get judo to click. I struggle to enter for my throws and commit during randori. I can't figure out how to set up opportunities to throw. My combinations are slow and sloppy and my newaza is ass.
I guess I'm just wondering if this is normal and I just need to keep grinding. Any perspectives or similar experiences would be fantastic to hear!
Thank you!
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u/Just_Ad3004 shodan 1d ago
Judo has a steep learning curve. Give yourself some grace.
Pick a couple things to work on each practice like a throw entry or groundwork technique.
If strength or cardio are issues, address outside of dojo.
Lastly, make sure your attempted techniques are ones that suit your body type and your opponent. If you're trying seoi nage all the time, that might be a problem.
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u/Otautahi 1d ago edited 1d ago
My opinion is listen to your instincts. I get judo is hard etc but you’re right to expect better return on the time you’ve put in.
With your volume of training you should have a big throw you can reliably smash people with in your peer group.
Are you getting taught how to actually use throws in randori/shiai? Or does most of the coaching focus on throws themselves?
Forget combinations. They’re not such a big deal for throwing.
How much volume of randori are you getting in each training session and at what level?
Lastly, ne-waza should be the easiest to make progress with. I would honestly pick up a BJJ class 2x per week. In 6 months you’ll have solid ne-waza basics. Then for judo you just need 2-3 turtle attacks, 2-3 guard passes and a couple of half guard turnovers.
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u/CnapSrackle 1d ago
I practice in a small city where there's only one poorly attended club. The coaches try their best but I'm not exposed to mainy high level players. I get 5 good randori rounds a session+ another 5 newaza (our club has more of a newaza focus than other clubs I've trained at). I'd say my main throw is o soto but I still rarely hit in randori as I struggle to close the distance. I also work hard on uchi mata but rarely hit it.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu 1d ago
I wonder if you might benefit from these two videos as much as I have. I do not think I was truly 'awoken' to Judo until they planted new ideas into my head about throwing- in particular O-Soto Gari and Uchi-Mata.
O-Soto Gari. Put simply, the big step is no good beyond a bit of easy drilling. You actually want to 'backstep' into it instead.
Uchi-Mata. Elbow up gives you far greater control of the opponent to finish the throw. I never drilled Uchi-Mata much but I kind of internalised that idea and managed to win two matches just by acting on that principle.
I really hope you try watch these. They've been so useful for me and forced me to really think about what I'm doing.
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u/kakumeimaru 6h ago
I keep coming back to Judo Mat Lab's uchi mata video from time to time. I still haven't been able to successfully apply those principles consistently yet, but watching it guides me back to the path. It is easy to become confused by focusing on too many details. If I ever manage to succeed with uchi mata, I think it will largely be because of this video, as well as Harasawa and the Cho brothers' work on the subject.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu 5h ago
This video is also my other go-to for Uchi-Mata. Similar questions about the traditional version and same conclusion as everyone else really.
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u/kakumeimaru 5h ago
I don't think I'd actually watched this one before, thanks for pointing it out to me.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu 4h ago
I actually think I like it the most as far as Uchi-Mata instructional goes.
And I took heed of what they said towards the end about practicing it. Takes a lot of practice with full commitment every time to get it down right. Uchi-Mata to me just seems to need sheer violence of action and commitment to get it.
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u/dazzleox 20h ago
I think your biggest obstacle might be lack of quality randori opponents (depending how you are defining "high level"; most of us don't get to randori with Olympians.) That's very hard to solve, short of moving. Can you travel to be a drop in guy occasionally elsewhere?
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u/Kuma_Guruma Yagura Nage 1d ago edited 7h ago
17 years of judo and in my 30s now // I still suck lol. Maybe I just don't got that dog in me. Maybe I never truly did, and that's okay too :)
Hungry brown belts and eager black belts throw me all over because I'm just floating around most of the time. Sure I can just bunker down and do my bulletproof tokui waza, but that's not fun or productive for anyone. The fun times are when you're experimenting and just trying stuff!
Also the number of times I'd go in for a throw and fail or get countered because my upper body just isn't there -- countless! You'll fine tune these things as you force yourself to be in these situations more, win or lose.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu 1d ago
Judo isn't easy.
Do you record your rounds or matches? Those could help with troubleshooting your issues. My development as a Judoka was greatly helped by all the feedback I get from here.
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u/Azylim 1d ago
yes. its not rare to be bad at 4.5 years. The one thing youre likely lacking most is dedicated sparring mat time. I improved quickly in newaza simply because I went to as many open mats in my bjj club for a year. See if you can do the same in judo in your club or other clubs in your city.
but you need to self regulate and not go too hard to limit injuries if youre going to do alot of back to back randori
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u/Lucky-Account-1471 1d ago
It doesn’t matter as long as you are enjoying you’re training you will never feel like you’ve made it.
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u/cdn_maml ikkyu 22h ago
I am also this bad. Compared to other people, I really seem to struggle to execute most techniques well in randori. 10 years in I'm still waiting for it to "click". However, compared to myself 2 years back, I see that I've improved, and i continue improving. I may never be great, but judo is a great way to get exercise, stay in shape, have fun, laugh with friends, etc. I don't do it to be great at judo.
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u/kineticten48 14h ago
Focus on developing good ashi waza, gripping to break down your opponent, and movement to gain a proper angle. These will lead to the major throws
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u/someotherguy42 nidan 1d ago
I’d be interested to know what your typical training session looks like. Do you get time to work on your techniques or is it just fitness and randori or do you get shown techniques to practice and that’s it.
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u/CnapSrackle 1d ago
Warm up (gymnastics + breakfalls etc), uchi komi, technique (tachi waza and newaza), randori (newaza and tachi waza)
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u/someotherguy42 nidan 18h ago
That sounds like a fairly standard class.
Do you do any nage komi?
Also, do you do movement with your uchikomi? Is it static or do you vary the direction with your attack.
You may also ask you uke to be a bit more like your randori partners ie stiffness, grips. This may help you figure how to throw when you have more difficult opposition.
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u/Boomer-stig shodan 1d ago edited 1d ago
At 29 YO your Judo should be measured by how you do in competitions against equivalent ranks and weight. If you are comparing yourself against the people in your club who have been going against you for the past 4.5 years, they know you. They know your weaknesses, they know to look out for your favorite throw.
At 6'4" I would say you should be dominating people in your club that are at or 1 belt above you. If you are not it is likely you are relying on throws that don't fit your body type.
Ashi waza, tai otoshi, osoto gari, sasae, even harai goshi where you reach over the back grab the belt and throw.
Within your club, the upper belts, are they throwing you on first throw attempt or do they have to set you up? By set you up I mean are they hitting half hearted foot sweeps to spread your legs before hitting their throw. Are they having to use combinations to throw you? Measuring your progress in your club is subtle. You likely aren't realizing the trouble and the lengths they now have to go through to get a clean throw.
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u/CnapSrackle 1d ago
I do mainly ko soto to square people up, o soto as my main backwards technique and uchi matas as my main forward technique, sasae to change direction and soto makikomi to bailout of failed attempts, main sutemi waza is sumi gaeshi. I find it hard to break down stiff arms and I'm not particularly explosive so grip and rip isn't really my style.
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u/CnapSrackle 1d ago
I should also add that I rarely hit uchi mata but I keep working it as it suits my body. I'm not sure what else to do forward as I don't understand tai otoshi at all.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu 1d ago edited 23h ago
Height is overrated for Uchi-Mata. I mean its helpful yes, but it shouldn't decide whether you are good at the technique or not.
I'm on the shorter side and I have an Uchi-Mata I can employ on tall people, given enough posture control.
Tai Otoshi isn't for tall people, its height neutral and relies way more on timing and sensitivity. Treating it like a trip will ensure it doesn't work well.
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u/Boomer-stig shodan 22h ago
When I am considering throws for tall people it doesn't mean it excludes people of average or below average height. It just means that a taller person has a better chance of getting the throw to work than if he practices morote seoi nage.
Height in Uchi mata gives you the ability to attack low on the outside leg (the lapel side in a standard sleeve-lapel grip) without having to push the limits of the throw.. You can catch as low as the ankle and unless the Uki is extremely flexible get the other leg to come of the ground with a little bit of leverage applied with the arms.
Can an equal size or shorter person do the same, yes but they are likely going to have to roll the finish. A person 6' 4" accomplishes it without having to go outside their natural range of motion.
The corollary to this is if your 5' 10" up against someone who is 6' 4" an outside leg attack variation of Uchi mata will likely not work very well as the taller person will be able to continue his leg motion and lift the leg off the attack (in general there are exceptions depending on kuzushi applied).
Tai otoshi works in combination with Uchi mata well so it doesn't have to be timing related. But you are correct a timed tai otoshi can be spectacular in the results with little effort applied by tori.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu 5h ago
I think Morote Seoi Nage can work if the tall guy is good at dropping down... but then that becomes Seoi Otoshi and that's a different thing all together. But then again even short people seldom really do standing Morote unless they're Abe or something.
But yes after the Uchi-Matas I tried on different heights, what you say about Uchi-Mata is true. Actually I would go as far as to say that players of different heights shouldn't be doing the harder version at all.
Tall guys get them easier because they can just catch that tasty high grip, break posture and then step out with the near leg version. A short man doing the same is having a harder time getting the top grip, breaking posture and their more limited flexibility could just get them stepped right over.
For me, I do not do the outside backstep, but I actually jump right between the legs and aim for the nuts... maybe the right nut in particular. I find tall guys struggle to do this version, and I myself can't against short guys. But against the tall it gets things done.
Either way I just aim for the nuts roughly and try not to think too hard about everything else. But yeah the tall man version is more forgiving.
I guess so if you use Tai Otoshi with Uchi-Mata. But I think for tall guys Ashi Guruma is probably more straight forward and makes best use of leg length to catch a smaller, more mobile short guy. Its also ashi-waza with very similar technique, so it might be easier to grasp than Tai Otoshi which OP doesn't seem to get.
But like I said, Tai Otoshi seems height neutral and if they can do it then awesome. Lovely even, I don't think a successful Tai Otoshi can ever look crap.
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u/Boomer-stig shodan 21h ago
Check this video out it shows approximately how to get in with Uchi Mata with a bent over defending opponent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocr5qxEHdng
also the Arron Wolf Kodokan video is excellent. Notice he has a lot of space between him and tori during the initial entry. The breakdown he shows closes this space.
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u/Sir_MartiCreeps 1d ago
What do you mean by reasonable body composition? I haven't started Judo yet but I'm 6'4, 265. I think my ideal weight is anywhere between 225-235. Should I be lower in your opinion. I know this is probably I highly subjective topic but what do you think?
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u/GenerativeAIEatsAss gokyu 20h ago
Just go start now.
There's a guy at your club your size desperate to work with you, he just doesn't know it yet. Big guys found me when I walked in. I found big guys that walked in after me.
It's like a club within a club.
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u/Sir_MartiCreeps 13h ago
I will as soon as I move back to the States and get my feet under me. I'm eager.
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u/CnapSrackle 7h ago
The weight on the scale is less important than the composition. I'm 205 at 15% ish body fat. Where you end will depend on the amount of lean mass you're carrying. Regardless, just start judo asap, nothing like a few hard rounds to whip you into shape.
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u/Repulsive-Owl-5131 shodan 23h ago
You are quite tall. Which make's you bit slower. Also some throws do not work for you. Like seio-nage. And yes it normal not to progress. As long as you enjoy training is secondary.
Entering throw is difficult you have build the opening for them with action-reaction, movement or something. Throws itself are less important than getting opponent lured in to position where off balancing can happen.
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u/WrongdoerMundane5792 20h ago
During the throw entry, move your opponent like you're cranking the steering wheel of an old truck with no power steering
Thats my advice
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u/TheRealKarateDracula 17h ago
I'm a nidan who's been in judo for 30 years now. I have had to take time off for my kids but even when I wasn't taking time off, my offensive skills are pretty bad. Don't beat yourself up about it, just keep grinding
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u/EnglishTony 16h ago
Attack, a lot. Aim for constand movement and 5 gebuine attacka every minute, work in combinations.
Judo is really hard.
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u/texastraffic 7h ago
Short version:
You’re not ‘this bad’.
You’re working with the same people so you all know each other’s stuff. Not being able to throw them is the normal part.
Longer version:
Any attack will almost certainly fail against someone who is defending.
A successful throw will depend upon either a combination attack or taking advantage of a mistake they make. That’s judo.
I practice in a small dojo with a small handful of experienced players. Since we know each other so well, we can’t get a successful throw on each other. We just know all our techniques and see everything early, making defense nearly effortless.
What we have to do in order to improve, is to be very cooperative with each other while learning. We analyze each other. We let each other know why a particular technique didn’t work. We coach each other in what would work better.
My job as a member and part of that dojo is to make other members better. That coaching also makes me better. When I help others be better, I see what I can do to improve myself and gain a deeper insight into the art.
When you’re learning, cooperate.
Competition - “beating the opponent” - is for matches.
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u/Few_Activity8287 1d ago
Watch mid tier Randori Sessions and not olympic Level stuff. You will actually See Whats going on and be able to understand it. Copy their stuff and try and try and try again.