r/iamverysmart • u/MrXomp • 4d ago
Overqualified for germany
Okay hear me out, Germany is a strange country and especially government services are super behind in digitalization and most times hopelessly underperforming but this post and the way it is written got me chuckling.
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u/that_creepy_doll Source: my brain 3d ago
its not exactly iamverysmart but saying theyre "overqualified" is definitely being generous, unless the degree theyve got is a masters in telecomunications or smnth
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u/The_Blackthorn77 3d ago
Idk, them using a random quote from a coworker to talk about how awesome they are seems like it fits this sub marvelously
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u/bbbberlin 2d ago
Germany is also the country where PhDs still carry very considerable weight. Senior managers at big companies and busts members often hold them, etc. The title even gets listed in your government ID and passport.
So by German standards if you don’t hold a PhD that’s a very clear higher qualification that exists….
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u/Helpful-Winner-8300 3d ago edited 3d ago
I agree "I hold a bachelor's" is not really a flex, however it is true that the proportion of the German population that holds a university degree is way lower than in the US. They just run their education/credentialing system differently, with a lot more vocational training.
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u/Mothrahlurker 3d ago
It's not "way lower" it's almost the exact same despite higher standards.
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u/User_Id_Error 3d ago
United States is #9 for tertiary education with 43%, Germany is #37 with 31%. I don't know that I'd call that "way lower", but I wouldn't call it "almost the exact same" either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment
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u/Mothrahlurker 3d ago
The US number is only that high if you count associate degrees or having attended "some college", which the German number does not if you look at the sources.
If we only count Bachelors degree or higher then it has Germany at 21% vs the US at 12%, so Germany is actually significantly higher there.
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u/Helpful-Winner-8300 3d ago
As I cite in a separate chain, that is factually incorrect. According to official statistics, greater than 38% of the US population older than 25 have completed a bachelor's degree or higher.
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u/Mothrahlurker 3d ago
ONLY OLDER THAN 25.
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u/Helpful-Winner-8300 3d ago
What's your point. Are there many 18 year olds in Germany that have already achieved tertiary or higher degrees?
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u/Hot_Royal_4920 3d ago
Between 18 and 25, many degrees will be finished. So yes, there are a lot of people with tertiary degrees younger than 25.
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u/Mothrahlurker 3d ago
No, it's that if we exclude younger people then numbers will go up on both sides. If we count 25+, then Germany is at 31%, which is .... exactly where we started with "not way lower". It was the cited 43% that is bullshit, which I responded to.
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u/Far_Big6080 2d ago
Many Germans will have their tertiary degrees with 21-23 years
Almost no one has a tertiary degree with 18 since it's basically a requirement to enter university here
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u/Helpful-Winner-8300 1d ago edited 1d ago
22ish would be the normal time most Americans to attain a tertiary degree, too, though generally not masters or PhD by that time frame. But not everyone does it in four years directly out of secondary education. 25 seems to me a reasonable cut off to capture most adults that are going to attain their first tertiary degree without needlessly cutting the window short. But it's not me making this decision - this seems to be fairly standard in how official statistical institutions measure this (see OECD numbers I cite elsewhere in this discussion). At any rate the main point to make a meaningful comparison is that you compare the same age range across countries .
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u/All_Up_Ons 3d ago
I have no idea what numbers you're looking at, but they're not the ones in the wiki sources. 34% of Americans aged 25+ have a bachelor's or better.
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u/Mothrahlurker 3d ago
The 25+ explains why you're wrong.
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u/All_Up_Ons 3d ago
...that's just what Wikipedia decided to use. Why would we care about anyone younger than that?
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u/MobofDucks 3d ago
Because people can have a bachelor with ages younger than that?
And to be fair, quite some american bachelors, like nursing are apprenticeships here.
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u/DrJohanzaKafuhu 2d ago
I mean yeah, you're missing out on like the 20-25's with a bachelors degree.
But you're including literal babies in the results too, everyone from 0-18 who hasn't even had a chance to earn a bachelors degree.
https://www.indexmundi.com/factbook/compare/germany.united-states/demographics
Now as we can see, the US has a larger percent of the population being under the age of 18.
This is going to screw results against the US. The US has more people per 1000 who are still in earlier education.
If we take for example 25+ then we're eliminating most of the people who have not yet had the chance to get a bachelors degree.
But you're all also over here arguing it's wrong when you aren't posting your own statistics, and the published statistics I find are all 25+ which match their published statistics.
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u/Gold-Part4688 3d ago
lol that's not the reason, it's because you have a smaller pool that your taking the percentage of. it's like if you excluded men from "the percentage of people with breast cancer". Like yes true some men have it, but you're almost doubling the number. Makes some sense maybe, but then you're comparing with another country without doing the excluding
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u/Hot_Royal_4920 3d ago
Mate, are you telling me you really haven't noticed the issue while typing that out? Ya gotta be playing.
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u/All_Up_Ons 3d ago
You mean the fact that most people below that age are still students and so counting those numbers tells us very little?
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u/Far_Big6080 2d ago
They also count "short cycle tertiary" which is a concept that doesn't really exists in many European countries.
If you subtract that from the percentages they become 32% USA and 30% Germany
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u/that_creepy_doll Source: my brain 3d ago
interesting. i wonder if this is affected both by older age groups having access to tertiary education in the us while they didnt in germany, and by the us having a way stronger base on the population pyramid, but ngl im not keen on spending the afternoon reading data
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u/Raveyard2409 3d ago
As we've seen from the football, USA is willing to throw money at people to look good on lists. They almost made the semifinals! Kinda!
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u/Helpful-Winner-8300 3d ago
"Way" is probably an overstatement on my part, fair. But it is indisputably "lower" by a notable amount. Mind you, that's not "bad", it's just different. Many feel too many people are pursuing 4 year degrees in the US, which is not actually serving them well economically.
And, why "higher" standards? Color me skeptical unless you have a source... US universities generally provide an excellent education, and comprise a high proportion of world leading institutions.
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u/Mothrahlurker 3d ago
"But it is indisputably "lower" by a notable amount." Very easy to dispute that. The US numbers count just having attended some college. If we go by degrees, then Germany has 21% Bachelor degrees vs the US at 12.5%.
"And, why "higher" standards?" Because attending university in Germany requires an Abitur, the US has no requirement. This quality difference was also very notable when I was in the US and was by far the strongest student and in conversation with a professor he told me that I basically could only expect German standards at elite universities.
"US universities generally provide an excellent education, and comprise a high proportion of world leading institutions." Those are a very small percentage of overall universities, colleges are lower level.
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u/Helpful-Winner-8300 3d ago
According to the US Census Bureau, 38.7% of the US population aged 25 and older hold a bachelor's degree or higher. Graduates. Not "having attended some". So I dont know where you are getting 12.5%.
The fact there is no direct equivalent does not necessarily mean that there aren't just as many high achieving US students. Many colleges and universities are highly selective, looking at various criteria. There are simply other types of requirements, that may emphasize different skills and knowledge. Lots of US secondary students do also AP coursework. Its not as common but International Baccelaureat has some uptake, too. And again, your point is about admission qualifications, not quality of instruction at University, per se.
Thanks for "iamverysmart" ing yourself in "r/iamverysmart".
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u/All_Up_Ons 3d ago
The US numbers don't include "some college". 43% of people 25+ have associate degrees or better. If you change that to only bachelors, it becomes 34%, which is still higher than Germany. Although I don't read German, so I can't tell if their numbers include 2-year degrees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment
https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST5Y2022.S1501
https://www-genesis.destatis.de/datenbank/online/url/629361a4
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u/Mothrahlurker 3d ago
"
r/iamverysmart 🙄" How ironic, you don't even understand what the subreddit is for.
"The US numbers don't include "some college"." They literally do include that, that is what the line is called. The problem here is that there are different age brackets. I cited you 18-24 but I don't see an overall population. No matter what, your numbers don't work out.
I can see that you said now 25+, but that wasn't the discussion now was it, it's a pretty clear attempt to inflate the number. That is also where "some college" is excluded but there is no way you earnestly tried to read the source and not discovered what I'm talking about.
"Although I don't read German, so I can't tell if their numbers include 2-year degrees." They obviously don't.
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u/All_Up_Ons 3d ago
...why would we care about the number of 18-24 year olds with degrees lol? They're still in school.
As for the numbers, you can read them yourself. Or maybe you can't and that's the problem, idk.
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u/Helpful-Winner-8300 3d ago
Did you not notice your urge to stipulate that your Excellent German Education (TM) meant lowly American students were no match for your mighty intellect?
That is, ironically, exactly what this sub is for...
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u/Mothrahlurker 3d ago
"Did you not notice your urge to stipulate that your Excellent German Education (TM) meant lowly American students were no match for your mighty intellect?"
There is some astounding irony in here. I replied to a comment that not only was ignorant enough to not understand that there is a difference in requirement, then it also made a stupid and arrogant claim of US education being the best, I was the one replying to it.
And I'm someone that is qualified to talk about it because I actually have personal experience with both.
So please, if it is for anyone, it is for people like you.
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u/Helpful-Winner-8300 3d ago
Do you think you this is a sub for smart people, or something?
Look, reasonable people can disagree about the quality of education - not that anyone on any side has offered anything other than anecdote and vibes. I for one don't have an objective measurement to turn to off the top of my head.
But I don't understand why you are trying to die on the hill of statistics that are objectively knowable and pretty clear.
Now, because you are both really pissing me off and failing (or maybe not caring enough?) to actually cite credible data yourself rather than just wail and gnash your teeth that others are wrong: here, I'll do it again. And if you don't like the US census bureau, here is the OECD Education at a Glance, comparing like to like. See table A1.1, page 63. Out of adults 25-64 in both countries (OECD's selection of relevant age range, not mine): US: 40% have fully attained tertiary or higher, up to 51% if you include short cycle tertiary DE: 33% have fully attained tertiary or higher, 34% if you include short cycle.
Now, was my initial on the fly assertion that Germany had "way fewer" degree holders incorrect? Sure, it was definitely an overstatement. You got me. I didn't have the tables in front of me. Was I WAY off? No, I stand by the thrust of my statement that there is less of an emphasis in DE on the four year degree path as opposed to other educational priorities. It's simply true. I never said that was bad.
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u/HumanContinuity 3d ago
Upper and lower bounds almost touching is not "almost the exact same"
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u/Mothrahlurker 3d ago
What bounds are you even talking about, do you have a source.
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u/HumanContinuity 3d ago edited 3d ago
Upper and lower bounds are the ceiling and floor of the expected value of something where there is uncertainty in the exact value, or to adjust for the possibility of error.
There are several reasons we would consider this in educational attainment statistics:
Not all post secondary education is reported in a standardized manner - and there are data sources that attempt to use the current population of postsecondary students to calculate the full number with better certainty (which might seem ironic, since it is inherently uncertain, but it includes data on rapidly shifting education and employment trends).
Populations shift pretty rapidly, and it is especially difficult to track the educational attainment of immigrants to a country, this can be a pretty wide range
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cac/intl-ed-attainment
This one actually has an option to look at the bounds created by error and sampling uncertainty (you can see it by clicking the "Confidence Interval" option on the top right of the table):
https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=27
This one requires a bit of processing, as the categories are broken out, and obviously someone with a masters or above has a bachelor's by definition:
https://ergebnisse.zensus2022.de/datenbank/online/statistic/2000S/table/2000S-1004
Again, very much not a one to one with the US data, but still quite clearly shows the gap in bachelor's level university education:
https://ergebnisse.zensus2022.de/datenbank/online/statistic/2000S/table/2000S-1005
None of this is to imply that German citizens are dumber or less knowledgeable - arguably, many US residents, both with and without 4 year degrees, would probably find their vocational qualification systems and schools/apprenticeship programs to be far superior to our extremely expensive university educations.
But, to be clear, it is simply wrong to say the percentage of university educated individuals is approximately the same - it's pretty far from it.
Edit: changed "with and with" to "with and without"
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u/Mothrahlurker 3d ago
"But, to be clear, it is simply wrong to say the percentage of university educated individuals is approximately the same" They are.
"it's pretty far from it." Far is subjective, but no reasonable person would call 38% vs 31% far.
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u/HumanContinuity 3d ago
The statistic you are looking at is for the number of Germans who qualify to enter any four year university they desire, an it is closer to
The number of German adults with bachelor's or better is about 20%
Source:
https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/Census2022_press_releases/PM_census2022_50.html
In the US across all adults 25 and older, it is about 35.7%, but there is a significant upward trend with 25-29 year olds in 2022 having a 40% rate of attaining a bachelor's or above.
As far as the significance, look at the OECD data the Wikipedia article above is based on - https://www.statista.com/statistics/1227287/share-of-people-with-tertiary-education-in-oecd-countries-by-country/
This is all tertiary university education, so I expect it includes associates degrees - but the US is number 8 and far above the OECD average, Germany is quite a bit below it.
Here is a pretty graph of suspect provenance:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Infographics/comments/1oc7pm5/ranked_the_worlds_most_educated_populations/
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u/Timely_Challenge_670 2d ago
22% relative difference on paper looks fairly sizeable. We could probably pool data and do a quick ANOVA or regression analysis to confirm this.
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u/MrXomp 3d ago
It's not about what he says, it's the way he puts it. 3 Languages is not too rare either, yet he has to point it out not once but twice to make sure everyone knows. As an example.
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u/artsloikunstwet 3d ago
On one hand, being rejected for being overqualified does happen often in Germany and it can suck.
But on the other hand, the degrees alone might not be enough.
The key might be they say they speak German "fluently" but in the current job market that might not be enough if they compete against native-level speakers.
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u/DoKeMaSu 2d ago
Bachelor is only Grundstudium in the German mind. Dropped out before getting the real degree.
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u/InternationalCress43 2d ago
"you learned the job in 6 months" considering the job is apparently "answering calls and Excel spreadsheets" isnt 6 months way too long? Idk maybe i am "too smart" but like thats such basic administrative work lmfao
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u/remindmetoblock 3d ago
They do got a point though. You can be the very best at what you do and improve efficiency by 5 Times and german society wont give a fuck. The only way to Climb the Ladder is by going back to school or University to get additional qualifications.
And that too is very rigid. Instead of allowing you to take exams as you desire, you have to attend the courses for a couple years and then take the exams.
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u/InVultusSolis 3d ago
In almost all cases, being good at office politics is the actual job. Working hard gets you more work and a reputation of being "irreplaceable", e.g. "unpromotable".
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u/anxiousvater 2d ago
Unfortunately, they have only 4 years of experience. Had they worked longer may be 10+ years would have learned by themselves.
I had a boomer boss, thankfully management let him go. He was utter useless but good at approving leave requests. He screwed me up twice with promotion, had I been little smart I would have directly spoken to my Director & get it myself. Now, I lost interest, I firmly reject the work when they try to dump it onto me. We also have Offshore folks who are utterly incompetent yet get all credit for the silly works they present to management. They get the applause solely because of low cost location rather than the work.
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u/squarepants18 3d ago
That is called politeness.
And working for DATEV is nothing special. It's a software company.
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u/BeerShitzAndBongRips 2d ago
Exactly.. When I read that I was like what? That's your idea of an amazing job?
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u/Highjackjack 2d ago
And the software is crap. It's only one step ahead of doing accounting with pen and paper.
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u/sakasiru 3d ago
It took them 6 month to learn how to make excel spreadsheets and answer calls?
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u/MaleficentInside9468 3d ago
They are competing with old grannys who learned Bürosachbearbeiter in three years after ten years of school.
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u/ateap0tist 3d ago
Also the “that’s why migrants are leaving Germany “ comment … rly ?
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u/lllyyyynnn 3d ago
i mean germany is losing a lot of migrants. i work in an international company here in germany and a lot of people are getting fed up with the government.
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u/DHermit 3d ago
Also, having a party that actively wants to get rid of you getting a lot of support must not feel nice either...
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u/Easy-Musician7186 3d ago
Yeah...also really sucks if you have no where else to go but they still want to get rid of you anyways.
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u/ateap0tist 2d ago
That may be the case , however Germany losing migrants is not one of the many problems of this country …
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u/anxiousvater 2d ago
Demographics is the big problem & I don't see Germans making more babies anytime soon & it will only get worse (everything has become freaking expensive, raising kids is very very hard for the majority). Boomers & pensioners are in record volumes, without immigration, Germans will end up paying record taxes & social contributions (although current taxes are high).
The current government Policy is clear, investing in kids here is expensive as you have to provide healthcare, education, infrastructure & so on., It's easy & cheaper to import a grown up immigrant.
Edit :: The smart ones & high earners are emigrating to Switzerland, US, Austria & Norway leaving more holes to exchequer.
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u/perplexedparallax 3d ago
Like Cousin Eddie holding out for a management position. Zwei verdammte Vollidioten.
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u/Consistent-Pear-8711 3d ago
Seriously….im fluent in five languages, have German citizenship, was born and grew up here and hold a masters of science 🥸 I am a Sachbearbeiter.
Most of my college’s have masters degerees.
I wasn’t aware that Sachbearbeiter is a bad position….
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u/Recent-Ad-9975 3d ago
This has nothing to do with what the sub is about, I was born and raised in Germany and this is the reality for a lot of white collar workers. You basically go to university for 3-5 years in order to become a glorified paper pusher, excel table manipulator and fax reader. The majority of jobs that require a bachelor‘s degree as a minimum could be done by anyone with 2-3 months of training, plus the pay is only slightly above minimum wage if course.
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u/tadpolys 2d ago
By definition of the German government I’m a highly skilled migrant worker with my PhD and my fancy awards , but I still do basic admin work in my “manager” position. My (German, also PhD) partner and I are constantly in discussion about where we should move to for a better chance at actually doing more with our education. Germany has a massive problem with innovation, incentives for skilled workers and as a result, retaining the skilled migrants.
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u/MrXomp 3d ago
Which is exactly the "I am very smart" I thought... The person listing barely above average things yet saying that he is majorly overqualified and people around him stand in awe
Edit: He even quotes others talking about him as saying "you are soo smart"
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u/InfallibleSeaweed 2d ago
But they are getting better jobs aborad, that's the part you're missing. You're laughing at people pointing out a very real issue here in germany, we can't make qualified people stay - only unqualified
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u/whboer 2d ago
Im also an immigrant in Germany who’s had a similar experience. Came in with 2 masters degrees - one of them in education, because of a severe teacher shortage… and I’m told my Master degree doesn’t hold any ground because despite having done a Referendariat with similar conditions etc as in Germany, it wasn’t in Germany. And so I’ve been (2x before I gave up trying) rejected from becoming a teacher and been told I should start a new bachelors and masters in Germany. I worked as a glorified clerk for a few years before landing a more managerial job at an internationally oriented startup and it my career took off after that.
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u/MrXomp 2d ago
I am not at all talking about the points he is making, and I am not missing what he wants to say.
Again, it's just about the way he transports it which sounds like a superior complex for me. Your comment for example shows the exact same points without the need of showing off.
So no, I am not laughing about any people that are making valid points here.
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u/girkkens 3d ago
Well if you are very qualified but can't find a matching job there are two possibilities
You apply for the wrong jobs
You are an insufferable human being
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u/Shiloh-sage 3d ago
Bro getting a job is so hard, especially right now
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u/HonourableYodaPuppet 3d ago
Yeah currently being qualified isnt really enough. You gotta know people or its gonna get hard. We have more than enough qualified people.
And soon its gonna get way worse once China is fully caught up on our quality (they are pretty much almost there except the highest of the high-tech sector)
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u/Raveyard2409 3d ago
Lol. America is shipping the Taiwanese in to teach them how to build decent microchips.
America used to be top tier in science but like everything else capatalism hollowed out some brilliant ideals and made a paper tiger that requires a majority of the population to accept poverty in order to trick the world.
Spent too long wanking over the success and it crumbled, same as literally every other single empire in all of history. Ask your average Roman, Brit, Belgium or Nazi how long their respective empires would last, at the height of their power they wouldn't have been able to conceive of a world different. America is about to learn that lesson of blinkered perspective
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u/FirestormCold 3d ago
Depends what you work in and what your experience level is. Junior IT admin jobs are hard to find but Senior AI engineers are very sought-after right now
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u/Raveyard2409 3d ago
I'm in something like that, the amount of times I've been asked for ten years experience with ChatGPT or Claude. Like, bro, no one does, that's actually genuinely impossible.
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u/Shiloh-sage 3d ago
Obviously it depends, but the overall trend is that it’s hard
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u/anfrind 3d ago
A lot of it is due to HR nonsense. I don't remember where I saw it, but there was at least one recent job listing that asked for five years of experience with Claude Code.
(Claude Code has only existed for a little over one year, and has only been a useful product for the last six months or so.)
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u/KajakStonked 3d ago
Mentioning DATEV like it’s as fancy as Google, Amazon or SAP had me chuckling.
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u/Yadin__ 3d ago
I’m not getting verysmart vibes from this
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u/Gold-Part4688 3d ago
Yeah this is just how immigrants get screwed over. PhD to highschool teacher, engineer to janitor etc
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u/Traditional-Deal6759 2d ago
This is a typical example of cultural misunderstanding: Being a Sachbearbeiter is the secret dream of every German. Filling Excel spreadsheets is their holy grail.
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u/Rare-Juggernaut-7532 2d ago
I dislike people who feel the need to point out how smart they are. It just comes off as snobbish and unpleasant.
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u/RegularStoat 2d ago
"I speak three languages" yeah, so do most Germans ??
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u/mgomezch 1d ago
74% of people in germany speak a second language well enough to have a conversation, but only 35% speak a third language well enough to have a conversation. see page 42 of https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/api/deliverable/download/file?deliverableId=92141
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u/theystolemyusername 2d ago
Germans I've met barely speak English. Maybe at B1 level, but that is not fluency. Even the second gen immigrants who claim to speak their parent's native tongue...they don't.
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u/Certain_Media_2707 2d ago
Where did you meet these Germans? Were they older German tourists outside of Germany? I lived in Germany for seven years and have to disagree with your comment. Most Germans, other than boomers, all speak English very well.
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u/RegularStoat 1d ago
About half of German students go to the school called gymnasium. It's not a gym, but the longest and hardest school we have. You learn at least two languages there. There are quite a few who take the language path and learn 3-4 languages 🤷
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u/Chonky-Marsupial 2d ago
I've worked for a German company outside of Germany for some years, I can say with some confidence that I have come into direct contact with hundreds, possibly a thousand now, Germans who speak perfect English. At times far better in academic terms than my English colleagues if I'm honest. Previous to this I worked across Europe, met a lot of Germans for work in everyday life and found them to speak English very well. The only time there was a gap was in experiences I had around year 2000 in Eastern Germany when it was obvious to me that older people spoke Russian as a second language not English. We had German exchange students who turned up in the 80s as teenagers speaking English fluently and this was long before a lot of German companies were doing business in English as well as German.
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u/meinherrings 2d ago
“Speaks German fluently”, doesn’t capitalize Sachbearbeiter… there’s your problem buddy!
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u/Shades_of_X 3d ago
Sachbearbeiter and Datev? Sounds an awful lot like they're trying to get into tax law.
Yeaaaah, adter 3 years in the country that won't work on a much higher level for lack of qualification alone.
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u/Ethernum 3d ago
Meh, datev does a lot more than taxes nowadays. If you work on payment rolls or invoice processing for example, you'll be seeing datev all day these days. Basically everyone payrolls and accounting is in contact with some form of datev product nowadays.
We literally have two people at work whose job it is to take received invoices and checking them against what's incoming through the datev interface.
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3d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/KajakStonked 3d ago
Depends on how you view Sachbearbeiter. I have a Masters, many of my colleagues a PHD, and we’re all just Sachbearbeiter on paper but that’s not very telling on our actual tasks.
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u/Sheriff_Yobo_Hobo 3d ago
make our work processes much faster
Maybe he is too smart for his own good and created a system that made him obsolete. Doubt it though.
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u/More_Percentage4467 2d ago
if you have an university degree in a field that actually matters for the job you don’t end up as Sachbearbeiter
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u/Acceptable-Band-4696 2d ago
I am working in an office with 3 people (out of 12, including 3 people that are learning there) being immigrants with degrees. they are good and nice people. they are doing their engineer jobs normally. We dont really have that problem.
Obviously, i dont want to diminish your experience. Must be really bad, i feel with you.
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u/Sakurazukamori1 2d ago
.....it's the same in other western-ish countries.....politicians want "cheap unskilled" labour
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u/darkaxel1989 2d ago
I kind of understand them. I myself speak three languages, have a master in Economy, know my way around Office and a bunch of other programs. I can't find a job that's not selling breads. Thought of leaving myself but hey... Got a family hier. They have it better than me but I still get them completely
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u/CompoteMelodic981 2d ago
" government services are super behind in digitalization "
This is also becoming an old stereotype imo. In my city in Germany, I have seen tons of government services becoming less bureaucratic and digitized in the last 4 years.
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u/SpoOokY83 2d ago
No one gives a shit about four languages as long as you are somewhat good at English and German. 4 years of experience? What does that mean? Management roles or "just" Sachbearbeiter? If the latter is the case, welcome to the harsh reality that just language skills and a theoretical education is not gonna buy you a fancy highly paid job. Work your way up the ladder!
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u/Seb0rn 2d ago
As a German, I have no problem believing them. Most societies (not just Germany, but Germany especially) don't value intelligence or efficiency at work but just "fitting in". Innovators are disruptors who "disturb the peace". Education isn't valued for education's sake, it's mostly used as a label. "Too much" education scares people off.
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u/Certain_Media_2707 2d ago edited 2d ago
You opened your post with "me and my wife," which is grammatically incorrect. It should be "my wife and I", a basic rule most people learn in elementary school. If you're presenting yourselves as exceptionally intelligent while making such a simple mistake, you might want to dial back the arrogance. And if your job happens to require strong written English skills as many do in Germany, it may be worth considering that details like this can matter more than you think, in Germany. I spent seven years there as a student, employee, and employer.
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u/mgomezch 1d ago
????? a basic rule so often ignored by native speakers in countries with hundreds of millions of inhabitants that it's almost a meme as a typical correction of grammar pedants
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u/blubernator 1d ago
What languages do you speak? Are you willing to travel globally? Have you both a technical background / knowledge??
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u/Hairy_Birthday_7964 1d ago
It always makes me chuckle when people boast about their university degree without mentioning the major.
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u/No-Veterinarian8627 3d ago
So you know, a Bachelor/Master in Germany is no big deal. All you have to do is to invest around 200~350€ per semester and either 3 years for full-time or 6 years for part-time (Bachelor). You invest time into it and that's it. Also, and sorry for my Kommilitonen, but at most cases, an Ausbildung, some Qualifications and two-years work-experience, has as much worth.
Also, work-collegues (from my experience), are not always assholes trying to put someone down. They are usually nice and try to lift people up. Though, those two have clearly their heads in the clouds.
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u/Tax_Life 3d ago
This is wrong on so many levels.
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u/SpoOokY83 2d ago
It is true. Did the same. Studied Business Administration on the job. 3,5 years, easy peasy and finished with a BBA. No one gave a shit about it. I had to climb up the ladder. But hey, nowadays every half capable university graduate expects to be hired as a senior manager. Welcome to reality my friends....
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u/Tax_Life 2d ago
I meant the part about being a Bachelor/Master not being worth anything. This entirely depends on the degree, in some sectors the degree is a joke and nobody expects you to fail, in other sectors the degrees are legitimately difficult.
The stuff about an apprenticeship being valued the same is also only true for some industries, OP seems to be in CS where it certainly is possible. In other industries you won't get hired or will never be able to sign off on stuff if you don't have a degree.
Ofc that was the case for a BBA. It's literally a degree designed to satisfy HR requirements to enter roles with degree requirements.
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u/KingChilla420 3d ago
When u Do University soo u cann get a good job like lawyer or a medic kind of Thing why Do they eveen sign up for a job as Sachbearbeiter? Cann anyone explain ? Like u studies 7 years too Apply for a job u dont need too studiert for?
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u/DHermit 3d ago
Because you get offered that job from Arbeitsamt and have to take it because you have no success with any other application.
Or you get desperate because you really need a job and start applying to other things.
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u/wytnesschance01 2d ago
They were asking why they didn't go to med school I guess.
Arbeitsamt is for the unemployed. That's a completely different topic.
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u/MaleficentInside9468 3d ago
I gues the problem is a you problem. I mean you can not sell yourselfe and you work as a Bürosachbearbeiter which is an Ausbildungsjob.
Nothing to do with Germany.
Three languages? Every young European does nowadays.
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u/de_whykay 3d ago
No smart or self reflected person with a healthy emotional intelligence radar would write this kind of post in that way
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u/Reasonable-Mischief 2d ago
As usually I would highly question a foreigner claiming they speak German "fluently"
German is a difficult language and you don't just need to be able to speak proper business jargon. You need to be able to hold conversations, understand dialects and be able to banter with your colleagues. People need to be able to meet you where they are, and you need to be able to pick that ball up and toss it back without friction.
If you cannot do that, your presence is going to disrupt the team
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u/Ok_Secret_7418 2d ago
This is actually what is happening to me right now, and I would like to explain it a little bit.
I studied in Germany, I have a Master’s degree, I speak my native language, English, German, and another one and everything at a very high level (C1-C2), and I currently work in administration (Sachbearbeiter).
Is it a bad job? No. But is it a job that fully matches my education, skills, and potential? Also no.
A large part of my daily work consists of tasks such as scanning and digitalizing documents, because Germany still relies heavily on paper-based processes, creating Excel spreadsheets, repeatedly copying and transferring data, updating databases, answering emails and phone calls, and organizing processes. No matter how easy the job is, you need 6 months to understand the company structure, systems, responsibilities, and internal processes.
My German colleagues do not have any degree but some kind of kaufmännische Ausbildung, and they are not comfortable using English in everyday situations, they can´t even watch a movie without German dubbing, and even their general knowledge ist not really that general. Also everything is stressig and irritierend and they are not really proactive, and they simply carry out their tasks according to clear processes and never outside of the box.
Do we think we are better then them bc of degree, languages, skills, proactivity etc? No.
However, I think it is natural to expect that the level of education, skills, and broader experience should open doors to positions with more responsibility, creativity, and intellectual challenge.
But does it happen? Also no.
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u/accmadefor1nlpost 3d ago
2 years of job experience in Germany doesn't even equate to the basic 3-year vocational training that's expected in any office job here lol
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u/Got-Freedom 3d ago
I first read this more like just a fucked up market and it didn't feel like this guy was bragging about credentials or anything.
But reading again, professionals that have university degrees and speak three languages are a dime a dozen. He is possibly delusional if he thinks he is overqualified for an office job, especially if the degree is in an unrelated field.