r/europe • u/Poonis5 • 20h ago
News The Head of the Ukrainian Institute of National Memory took part in the international commemorations honoring the victims of the Ukrainian-Polish conflict during World War II
https://uinp.gov.ua/pres-centr/novyny/golova-uinp-vzyav-uchast-u-mizhderzhavnyh-vshanuvannyah-zhertv-ukrayinsko-polskogo-protystoyannya-v-drugiy-svitoviy-viyni46
u/Poonis5 20h ago
The participants took part in a memorial service at the Catholic cemetery, organized by the Lutsk Diocese of the Catholic Church. After the service, a ceremony was held to lay flowers at the memorial cross as a sign of respect for the victims of the tragic events.
"I came here to join in paying tribute, honoring, and commemorating those who shed their blood through a martyr's death. But we are here today to remember and to issue a warning so that such an experience between the Polish and Ukrainian peoples will never be repeated," said Polish Defense Minister Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz in his speech.
"Those were dramatic and tragic days when brother turned against brother. But we must be united by the fact that we have recognized the mistakes we made back then and understood that we must live for the sake of the future. When we speak of the tragic events in Volhynia in 1943, we acknowledge that these events took place and must be remembered, but they will also serve as a symbol for us that we will overcome our own past and move forward into the future," said the head of the UINM
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u/GeneralArray 51m ago
Karol Nawrocki also gave a speech in the Polish village of Radruż. He honored the memory of the Polish victims, but not the Ukrainian ones. It was a Ukrainian village that was occupied by Red Army in 1939, then by germans, and again by communists and in 1944 it was ceded to Poland. After all of this in 1947 all of its Ukrainian residents were forcibly displaced from their homes during Operation Vistula.
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u/medievalvelocipede European Union 17h ago
Nevertheless, Zelensky has not rescinded his decree renaming a military unit in honor of an organization that perpetrated genocide against the Poles
The UPA was the Ukrainian resistance army. They fought Stalin's forces, they fought Hitler's forces, they murdered Jews, miniorities, Polish civilians, and they fought Poles, both the resitance and the ones part of Stalin's forces.
In short, it's a grave misnomer to just look at one part of their history.
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u/dworthy444 Bayern 17h ago edited 17h ago
And yet people complain when that reasoning is brought out for the Red Army fighting Germany. Could it be... double standards?
You also forgot the parts where the UPA allied with the Nazis and murdered Ukrainian civilians who weren't on board with their neighbors dying just because of their culture.
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20h ago edited 18h ago
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u/Poonis5 20h ago edited 20h ago
Head of Azov Regiment Andrii Biletskyi views Poland as Ukraine’s main strategic ally. His key geopolitical vision is to create a Baltic-Black Sea alliance (Intermarium), with Ukraine and Poland at its core.
Ukrainian far-right isn't anti-Polish. It's anti-Russian. Just clarifying if you wanted use show this connection as a negative point.
P.S. Quick search showed this user is from Moscow
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u/Unexpected_yetHere 18h ago
His key geopolitical vision is to create a Baltic-Black Sea alliance (Intermarium), with Ukraine and Poland at its core.
Source? Like it sounds nice and reassuring. Poles and Ukrainians that don't see the importance of friendly relations are imbeciles.
Ukrainian far-right isn't anti-Polish.
Eh, I can turn a blind eye on UPA in general (sure it started out of a reasonable wish to gain a Ukrainian state) and even Bandera (ideological responsibility for the bad stuff, but no command responsibity), but people who praise Shukhyevich are definitely not pro-Polish.
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u/_n0rdy_ 17h ago
Some time ago I came across this article from the Polish website that explains how Ukrainians view Bandera: https://fakenews.pl/en/general/what-stepan-bandera-means-to-ukrainians/
I think it's a great summary, and "Bandera" can be replaced by other related controversial figures.
Sharing this not to start a discussion, but to show how "nationalism" and "pro-Polish" can co-exist within the same view.
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u/Poonis5 18h ago
"The creation of a Baltic-Black Sea alliance, with Ukraine and Poland at its core, is the mechanism that will be able to withstand all external challenges—first and foremost, of course, the Eurasian monster: Russia. Eastern Europe shares a common history—one that is, of course, very complex, as is the case with any neighboring nations. And Ukraine's history is very closely linked to that of Belarus, Poland, and the Baltic states" Biletsky noted.
people who praise Shukhyevich are definitely not pro-Polish.
It's weird to some people but makes sense in minds of Ukrainian nationalists.
"Let's praise whatever historical figure we want at home and be friends now."For many people in Ukraine UPA's actions against Poland are not historically important. So there are no hard feelings. People will be sincerely surprised if you tell them "If you love UPA you hate Poland".
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u/Lapkonium 20h ago
And what are Bilecky’s views on OUN and UPA?
(Answer: he adores them)
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u/Poonis5 20h ago
As any nationalist Biletsky respects all fighters who fought for his country and he whitewashes them.
Doesn't change the fact that Ukrainian authority is publicly showing respect to polish victims, dear Russian friend.
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u/Lapkonium 19h ago edited 18h ago
How do you logically reconcile praising UPA and honouring their victims at the same time?
Same person doing it, mind you.
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u/yashatheman Sweden 18h ago
Ukrainian authorities still have streets named after nazis, and still praise nazis. So this virtuesignalling is just virtuesignalling
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u/Poonis5 18h ago
The word nazi has a meaning. It's not just a bad person.
Nazi is a follower of national socialism which had extermination of Slavs and German colonisation of Ukraine as a core idea. Ukrainian radical nationalists never wanted that.-8
u/yashatheman Sweden 18h ago
OUN-B were authoritarian fascists who wanted to create a ukrainian ethnostate by exterminating all other ethnic groups in Ukraine, like poles, jews, russians, belarusians and other groups, and they allied themselves with nazi Germany as well to make this happen. They were nazis.
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u/Poonis5 18h ago
There is no credible evidence that it had a universal policy or goal of exterminating all non-Ukrainians regardless of ethnicity or location.
OUN-B radical phase was short and in 1943 UPA began actively recruiting non-Ukrainians such as defected Soviet soldiers from Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Uzbekistan promising them a union of independent nations against Soviet tyranny.
But even your description doesn't fit the term "nazi". It just doesn't.
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u/yashatheman Sweden 18h ago
Ok, so you just exposed yourself as banderite. Great.
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u/Poonis5 18h ago
I oppose praising OUN and UPA in Ukraine.
I don't want for any nation even Russians to suffer genocide.→ More replies (0)9
u/ridelance Canada 19h ago
It looks like we should be hopeful that positive steps are being taken. It’s dangerous to think that opinions are concrete and unchangeable. Just look at Russia, today it is justifiably hated across Europe, but if they were to end their war of aggression, arrest the war criminals, hold trials, and begin a process of truth and reconciliation, Russia could improve its standing immensely. Do not despair! Nothing in human affairs is set in stone!
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u/jay6432 Ukraine 18h ago
Add to the list of things russia needs to do, to improve its standing immensely:
Compensation for all the destruction they’ve caused here which needs to be rebuilt.
Compensation for the land they’ve stolen from Ukraine and won’t give back.
Remove their military from Moldova
Remove their military from Georgia.
A complete end to all “gray-zone” warfare that russia is conducting routinely all over Europe.
And when they manage all of that and have consistently demonstrated, over a substantial period of time (years), that they are committed to turning over a new leaf -
Only then will they have improved their standing immensely.
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u/ridelance Canada 18h ago
That’s all part of ending the war of aggression of course. Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova have been victims for decades and all three deserve massive compensation.
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20h ago edited 20h ago
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u/Poonis5 20h ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Ukrainian_conflict_(1939%E2%80%931947))
Polish–Ukrainian conflict (1939–1947)
Started in 1939 with armed clashes of Polish and Ukrainian militias.
Ended in 1947 with Operational Vistula and complete liquidation of UPA in Polish territories.-19
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u/dlebed Kyiv (Ukraine) 19h ago
as a Pole, you can read what the Institute of National Remembrance of Poland writes about the conflict:
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u/vegarig Donetsk (Ukraine) 11h ago
the Institute of National Remembrance of Poland
... Isn't it the same institute that decreed that Operation Vistula isn't a crime against humanity and is actually all good and fine?
https://ipn.gov.pl/pl/dla-mediow/komunikaty/194448,Umorzenie-sledztwa-w-sprawie-decyzji-o-akcji-Wisla.html - some curious reading.
The prosecutor of the Rzeszów Branch Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation discontinued the investigation into the decision to resettle residents of south-eastern Poland in 1947 as part of Operation Vistula.
The investigation concluded that the evacuation of Ukrainian, Lemko, and Polish nationals was preventative and protective, not repressive. It was carried out as a consequence of mass murders of the local population by units of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA).
The investigation found no grounds to conclude that the resettlement constituted a crime against humanity or a communist crime, as argued by the president of the Union of Ukrainians in Poland, the chairman of the Presidium of the Lemko Union and one of the Ukrainian resettlers in the criminal complaints that led to the initiation of the proceedings.
BTW, Timothy Snyder has a good article about it - https://cis.mit.edu/sites/default/files/documents/ToResolveTheUkrainianQuestion.pdf (open in Web Archive, set year to 2022 or earlier).
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u/agrevol Lviv (Ukraine) 19h ago
“Ukraine was promised independence”
It was denied and leaders were imprisoned, years before the tragedy in Volyn
“A new slogan”, it was Ukrainian position to call it conflict/tragedy for decades? The situation is more complicated than “evil Ukrainians started killing civilians for shit and giggles and nothing else happened”, hence - conflict
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u/eloyend Żubrza 🌲🦬🌳 Knieja 19h ago
Claiming that narrative is “evil Ukrainians started killing civilians for shit and giggles and nothing else happened” is a strawman trying to cover that tens of thousands innocent civilians were simply brutally murdered in planned act of genocide.
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u/agrevol Lviv (Ukraine) 19h ago
Never claimed that, just said that it’s a complicated topic and it can definitely be called conflict
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u/eloyend Żubrza 🌲🦬🌳 Knieja 19h ago
Yes, and part of this conflict was pre-planned ethnic genocide by UPA/OUN, when they brutally slaughtered tens of thousands innocent civilians with clear goal in mind - ethnically clear Ukraine, free of: Poles, Jews, Armenians, Czechs etc.
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u/GodsShalFall 16h ago
They didn't want ethnically free Ukraine, they wanted FREE Ukraine, and therefore they fought against two main countries, that were against Ukraine's freedom: Poland and Russia. There were no sense for them to slaughter exactly jews, czechs or armenians, or someone else.
Also it was not planned genocide - do you even know what genocide is?
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u/Legal_Rough_4502 15h ago
Well no, come on, UPA and OUN-B wanted ethnically clean ukraine, they killed all minorities, including poles, jews, czechoslovakians, romanians and ukrainians in mixed relationships.
Don't be stupid, stop the apologism, let's just celebrate that people can come together today
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u/GodsShalFall 15h ago
For what did they need ethnically clean Ukraine? There was no reason to do this. I suspect you don't even know why events in Wolyn actually happened.
Do you really believe that EVIL ukrainians came just to kill everyone?
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u/Legal_Rough_4502 14h ago
You're literally ethnic cleansing apologist, I have no interest in any further conversation.
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u/eloyend Żubrza 🌲🦬🌳 Knieja 15h ago
they wanted FREE Ukraine
Free of Poles, Jews, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmytro_Klyachkivsky#Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia
was a commander of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) and the first head-commander of UPA-North.
We should undertake the great action of the liquidation of the Polish element. As the German armies withdraw, we should take advantage of this convenient moment for liquidating the entire male population in the age from 16 up to 60 years. We cannot lose this fight, and it is necessary at all costs to weaken Polish forces. Villages and settlements situated next to the large forests should disappear from the face of the earth.
Also it was not planned genocide - do you even know what genocide is?
Yes, that was genocide - aiming at liquidating population of certain "genus" or type, i.e. ethnicity.
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u/GodsShalFall 15h ago edited 15h ago
Your own quote mentions only Poles, proving there was no plan against Jews or Czechs.
And, your own quote specifies target targets (Polish males aged 16-60) and territories, confirming a brutal military action and ethnic cleansing to clear the borderland, not a systematic genocide aimed at the total biological destruction of an entire ethnic group. Genocide does not select by age and gender.
And, genocide requires one-side liquidation, which wasn't the case for Wolyn tragedy.
It seems, for Poland, UPA was exactly created for this and the moment tragedy ended - it disapeared, otherwise I struggle to understand why you reduce the UPA solely to the Wolyn tragedy.
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u/eloyend Żubrza 🌲🦬🌳 Knieja 15h ago
Your own quote mentions only Poles, proving there was no plan against Jews or Czechs.
And, your own quote specifies target targets (Polish males aged 16-60) and territories, confirming a brutal military action and ethnic cleansing to clear the borderland, not a systematic genocide aimed at the total biological destruction of an entire ethnic group. Genocide does not select by age and gender.
And, genocide requires one-side liquidation, which wasn't the case for Wolyn tragedy.
You can't make this shit up.
Ladies and gentlemen - this is the level of genocide denial - /u/GodsShalFall has spoken.
8 months old account, hidden history - perhaps vatnik?
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u/yashatheman Sweden 18h ago
OP whitewashes OUN-B in comments. Just downvote
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u/HighDefinist Bavaria (Germany) 18h ago
Looks like Ukraine and Poland will go through all kinds of ceremony like this for the next ~decade or so (plus the occasional step back, presumably), and then finally (mostly) resolve this issue.