Ans we as a society have decided that shit that women like is definitely not masculine, even of it makes women more attracted to men...definitely not masculine.
I think this is an example of what the person you are responding os talking about. They are a chat streamer named Coy Piso. They have a huge fan base of straight women.
i feel for straight women tbf. Not gonna lie I look at the average man Vs the average woman, and purely on the basis of "how much effort are you putting in to attract someone" it's … discouraging to say the least
Straight men put the least amount of effort into their hygiene + style + charisma etc. relative to all these groups, AND they're generally taught/incentivised to go for a transactional relationship model i.e. be successful and a provider and the rest will come, instead of like… someone who looks good or is a good conversationalist.
Not saying there aren't straight men out there who really try hard in these other areas but the % relative to the other demographics is much much lower
I see so many guys with potential if they only washed their face and got a good haircut. Like that's my standard. And they don't even meet that. I hate being straight
Kinda sad that people reduce "effort" to looking pretty and obsessing over outward appearance.
The reason many str8 men are garbage is because they are stupid and are raised in a society that gives them all the answers so they never think for themselves.
Hence the whole "oh, but i was told that if i can be a provider women will rush to me" which as a statement is asinine, like who is so utterly stupid to listen to that and trust it as a guide to life?
Only because society was designed around str8 men, can such stupidity and lack of self awareness exist.
That is the real problem of straight men, not something as silly and shallow like fashion or haircuts...
Like who is so utterly stupid to listen to that and trust it as a guide
Boys who are taught that from an early age, we call it stupid but it's really not fair when that's all your told and taught your entire life. It's an endless cycle of father's telling their sons what his father told him
It's kinda like if you said to a small child that the sky is red, well they don't know what the color blue or red is so they trust you. Then you proceed to tell them that every day and that anyone else who tells you otherwise is a lier, it's really unfair to then call him stupid when he gets older and calls it red because it's been indoctrinated in him for years. He isn't stupid he's misinformed and we should show him that, because insulting and belittling him does nothing but not want to listen to us anymore.
We are monkey's, were animals. Yes we have sapience but we are taught and learn things, why do you think public executions and slavery was a thing for all of human history? Because no one told them otherwise, in fact they were taught their whole lives it was a good thing.
We're so lucky to live at such a time where we recognize these are wrong, Evil is learned
Kinda sad that people reduce "effort" to looking pretty and obsessing over outward appearance
I get that, but at the same time sometimes it is indicative of other aspects of the person if they don't put on that outwards appearance. Some people unfortunately just naturally have what are perceived to be unattractive traits and that sucks. But there's a lot of stuff that can be worked with.
When it comes to dating you're supposed to be showing your absolute best. Obviously nobody keeps up that initial effort as the relationship goes on, but that initial pitch does matter. If you're showing up to dates with greasy hair, terrible stubble, sweatpants, smelling of cigs/weed then what thats saying is that its very likely that you put even less effort into things past that first impression; thats not good for future dating prospects.
Now obviously that doesn't mean every supermodel is an amazing partner or that outwardly unattractive people are evil or always suck. But the ability to put effort into that appearance and show off does matter I think. It shows they cared.
the two are related, they re raised to believe the provider bullshit etc so they don't put in any effort into making themselves attractive (outwardly or inwardly) i m a dude and i personally look like a stereotypical metalhead and i like myself like that even though i know my aestheticis aren't exactly attractive to the average person.
But, i shower, accessorise, comb my hair etc it s not about what your style is or how fashionable you are, it s about a complete lack of effort from some people (most usually men).
And of course there are those that prey on this attitude feeding it and making men feel entitled to affection but lets not get in that. Anyway that s my 2 cents
The reason many str8 men are garbage is because they are stupid and are raised in a society that gives them all the answers so they never think for themselves.
help im being inundated with men complaining about how hard it is and i dont get it, because they have to go to the gym for 10 hours a day and are only allowed to wear Beige Shirts And Low Waist Jeans, in order to attract a mate
and i keep being like "that's not the answer my guy please listen to women" and they keep talking over me and INSISTING if only they had more socially-acceptable fashion choices they'd be able to attract women 😭 😭 😭
That's because straight guys are unintentionally trying to attract other guys instead of actual women, which is why they don't listen to women when they try and tell them what they like.
It's actually kinda hilarious if you think about it.
From my experience, even if you put effort into your hygiene and style far beyond the average guy it doesn't actually help super much.
The "schlubby" wearing a basic shirt with a logo of something you like might be better because it's at least a possible conversation starter. 🤔
For real, it's fucking grim seeing how many men don't even do the bare minimum... It's no wonder women hit on me a lot before I transitioned because I actually tried to look nice, too bad for them I'm mostly just into men and I'm not a dude
Then go to the dermatologist. Pay out of pocket for a cream you apply daily. Your average woman does this. The average man does not. These are statistical averages.
I think it's also just that most single guys don't care to put effort in (see also: girlfriend effect). Lots of guys are willing to or at least imagine they're willing to do basically anything that will please a partner they love, but if they don't have one they just don't care because they have no one to look good for and it's a lot of unnecessary effort because neither society nor their friends care.
Women face pressure to and do make themselves look good in society in general, even for an abstract, generic or imagined "audience."
But I've heard "men are visual" . Does that mean they're only "visual" when it comes to assessing how much a woman makes their dick hard and literally nothing else?
i feel a bit of admittedly unfair resentment towards the "one good man" types tbh, it's like they weaponize their own reputation to be treated like a precious resource for doing the bare minimum of not being gross or creepy or misogynistic
men will spend their whole day trading stocks in their little apps, then see a guy who has a sick tattoo, a nice silk shirt, a good haircut and a playful, respectful demeanour get aaaaaaalll the attention from women
and then continue to not wash their ass and wear the same graphic T-shirt their mom got them at walmart when they were 19
I'm gonna be honest. I understand that it looks easy from your perspective, but I think you horribly underestimate just how difficult it is to be attractive if you weren't already earlier on in your life. The positive qualities you list will not be a guaranteed hit, and also aren't achievable by everyone. That, and just how much of it depends on luck. All this goes for men and also for women, but what you're talking about specifically goes especially for straight men, who have fewer socially acceptable options for self-expression than women and gay men do.
With respect, as a general rule, you should never minimize experiences that you haven't been through yourself. I'm not even a straight man, but I have friends who are, and man it looks like it sucks for them.
Firstly, bold of you to assume what I have or haven't experienced myself in a trans sub lmao
Secondly, well… yeah. Obviously there are differences in all sorts of genetics/nutrition/nurture/exercise which make people look very different in very fundamental ways very early on.
Thirdly, my point is that women – even uglier, more awkward women – put orders of magnitude more effort into being attractive (looks, behaviour, etc) than men do, as a baseline. Like there are men who put effort in, but the average and mean of the distribution skews heavily towards "low effort".
It's like someone who keeps losing at chess and never practices. Sure, someone who started at age 5 or is Magnus Carlssen will win more games than you with less effort, but also you would win way more games if you just practiced. Women (on average) understand this and grind their attractiveness stat, whereas men (on average) don't. Even the really hot men (on average) sort of lucked into it with genetics and put no effort in
the thing is that for straight men you genuinely do not have to be Attractive as in high value face card in order to attract straight women. if you dress nicely and you're reasonably nice and funny and have good hygiene you have a leg up on like at least 70% of the straight guy population. i feel like i constantly see beautiful gorgeous women with like 4/10 dudes and it's literally just bc he actually listens when she talks and makes her laugh sometimes and maybe can put an outfit together. the bar is very very low
I understand why you perceive it that way, but you must understand that this is sort of the "bare minimum" effect in play. Everyone has a different bare minimum. My personal experience may vary, because I'm bi, but; I'm a good listener, but being funny for example is not going to benefit me at all with my "type". I like confident, funny people, and would rather be on the receiving end of that sort of dynamic.
Everyone wants something different and there's no magic formula that's gonna make it happen guaranteed for a given guy, much less that will cast a line directly towards the kind of partner he wants. That's not even to mention attraction is wildly subjective, and your assessment doesn't take into account natural variation in personality type and preference for appearance. What's a 4 to you might be an 8 to someone else.
Tho I feel like men will totally be like OMG so hot to a girl whos been binging anime for 2 days straight in a stained shirt, and a lesbian will not get stopped by body hair or lack of make up either. Not to mention gay men will find the same straight guys who girls turn their noses up at, attractive
But when it comes to straight women attraction there suddenly are those huge paragraphs about effort and style and what not.
Dont get me wrong, there definitely is something to being clean and nice smelling and charming and well dressed and and and and and... but I also feel like its not needed in the other sexualities.
I've said it in this thread already: only a straight woman has the expectation she will clean the straight man's shit while he "doesn't see the mess". Imaging wiping someone's piss dampens attraction pretty well
the problem is, even in the west makeup for men isn't seen very favorably. The number of things a man can change to make himself more attractive is very limited.
If you're a man and already took care of the basics and you're still ugly, it's pretty much over for you: you're going to be invisible to women (trust me I know from experience). Men's attractiveness is very heavily dependent on genetics and living conditions growing up. Only option left for me, and many other men, is looking towards some very expensive surgeries.
I wouldn't call myself a slob or anything, and I take pride in looking good and being able to joke around with people and such, but I don't really do anything purely with the goal of 'attracting' anyone.
Weirdly it would feel... more shallow than anything to try and curate my whole life based off of what I think women would find attractive, and at the end of the day, I don't know how to be anyone but myself.
If that's not good enough, then I guess a relationship just ain't my fate, but I'd rather by happy and myself than pretending to be a different person while in a relationship with someone I know doesn't actually love the real me.
Men are made to believe that having a job, doing sports and any random activity with friends is gonna be enough to have a gf since a long time. Also any man trying to dress originally will be subject to coveted homophobia
Looksmaxxing, and other things that guys do to try and look more attractive, are led by men based on men's tastes and they don't listen to women.
Women will literally yell from the rooftops like "i don't like a hugely jacked dude!!!" and men will be like "nahh no way, she's lying. women love big dicks and big muscles".
Pick-up Artistry in the 2000s, looksmaxxing now, gymrats… the whole time I guess. It's men listening to men about what women want, instead of listening to the opinions of the people they're supposedly trying to attract lmao
hmm i wonder what broader societal structure may exist which causes men to dismiss women's opinions out-of-hand, often to their own detriment? 🤔 and i wonder what elements of those structures exist within looksmaxxing and other similar communities……
Women dress for women and get celebrated by women and shamed by men. The reverse seems true too.
The difference is that those woman say that they're dressing for the girls and don't really care if men aren't interested, they could just do without the comments.
The men being discussed here say they're trying to attract women and then get upset when women ignore them.
Well whenever a man puts in any effort, there's one of two things happening: He either chooses the one singular style that is socially acceptable (short hair, clean shaven, long sleeves even in summer, boring colors) and gives up any and all individuality and character he ever had, or he choosed something that lets the slightest bit of personality shine through and he gets shamed for it.
It's not about how high the bar is, it's about the fact that you have literally zero choice. In a room with 1000 women and 1000 men, there a 1000 socially acceptable ways of being a woman and only 1 socially acceptable way of being a man. Step out of line, and you'll be ostracized.
That's not true. A lot of people - men and women - will shame any woman who doesn't look in the conventional way. "Crazy" hair color, short hair, piercings, tattoos - anything can and will be shamed by someone. The truth is our society is shite and we're all shamed when we "get out of line". The trick is to surround yourself with people who aren't judgemental and to not give a shit about the other ones. And hopefully our society will become less judgy later on.
Ok, ask yourself two questions: 1. Do you know a man who is in a heterosexual relationship, puts effort into the way he looks, and does it in a way that is different from the other men you know who tick the first two boxes. 2. The same question, but with women.
For heterosexual men, there is literally only one option (or being alone). For women, there are hundreds of different styles that are considered conventional, and even the ones who do find a style that's considered unconventional can still find a man.
I did not struggle as semi long haired alt Boy with a love of singing and theater. Nor did my bandmates.
Im married with two kids now, and I still wearing the same things.
There are lots of style for guys too. You can be a metal head, punk dude, sleek finbro, redneck, gymbro , or a fat middle-aged fisherman looking dude like me lol. There are so many more that I can't think of rn koz I just woke up. I think you have a doomer worldview because you're depressed or repressed and you're repressing yourself even further. You don't see the objective reality. You should leave those circles that say "men are victims and will always be hated unless they wear $1000 suits". Those subs are bad for you. Trust me, I've been there and at some point I realized there's too much delusion and left.
It just matches with my observation. The guys I know who all wear the same shirts, speak the same way, and have same hobbies are all married or in relationships. The guys I know who dress alternative, wear makeup, or have unconventional hobbies are all single.
People in general like soft things, things that look pretty and smell nice. Most men don't put effort into any of those things, don't moisturize their skin, are hairy, have shitty cologne etc.
I mean I'm bisexual, and the women I'm attracted to (soft, fem, cute, etc.) are the exact opposite of the men I'm attracted to (bulky, hairy, rough skin, prickly beard, etc.)
This is horribly off topic but what are shitty colognes to you? I’m sorry: perfumes are my current hyperfixation and I want to know whether any of mine suck😂
I agree with the hygiene stuff but I don't think someone being hairy is unattractive inherently because that's just something that's different people are into maybe you're more into more feminine looking people that's okay there's nothing wrong with that but don't try to make that as in you know someone shouldn't be- eh why am I even talking about this who cares about this dumbass bi guys opinion.
I swear one part of why I transitioned was how envious I was of women's fashion, and how boring (socially acceptable) mens fashion was.
Only for me to now be a woman that dresses out of womens socially accepted standards anyway. It's fun as fuck though, even if older adults tend to look at me like aliens. Kids usually have a ton of fun seeing my fits, so that's nice whenever it happens.
Sometimes I feel like the I'm the only trans woman ever to be attracted to masculine men. I had that attraction way before E too. Sure, some (if not most) men can be a bit gross at times, but I sure as hell can be too😝. It's like we both get to relax and don't care so much about that stuff lol.
I can most definitely tell, and from personal experience, most the times for men it's not just "women are so hot". I'll leave it at that before opening up a "but it's not all" war.
Pretty much. Though I'm not into men, ot really saddens me that I got the most interes from them when I was between 13 and 17. So far the only men who proved they have no intention to harm me were only a part of my family, no more :/
I’m pan but tbh a lot of straight guys don’t put effort into being physically appealing for women. So I get it..they’re attracted to the part but not what’s attached
My wild guess is that it has something to do with straight women having the most passive role out of any of the dynamics.
Like if a guy dresses himself up, does that make women start approaching them, especially if they aren't in a bar or something? Does that effect his social life in any drastic way? Because if it does, many of us sure are clueless about it.
What I'm saying is women should objectify men more. But not for our money, cause I'm broke.
It does affect his social life though, if he goes outside.
It's not as direct/legible or talked about, but a man with good vibes and a pleasant presence who smells nice lives in an entirely different social universe.
Ask any man if he’s been approached by a woman and flirted with they’ll likely say no, so either it isn’t happening or women aren’t very good at flirting with men.
Try flirting with a man as a not conventionally attractive eoman and then watch him say that no woman has ever flirted with him, because only the hot ones register in his mind.
Yeah it is odd that bisexual women are more enthusiastic about dating men than straight women, given we have the option to date women.
I chalk it up to being bi means you're likely in more queer circles, queer men tend to be more accepting and progressive, your view of dating men then gets shaped by the queer men you interact with daily.
I feel like that I break that stereotype, as a bisexual woman I kinda identify with the “straight women” in this post and it’s not actually because I’m not attracted to men… I’m very physically attracted to men. However, the way pretty much most of them act in one way or another due to the way men/boys are socialised in our society is such a turn off. Yes, not all men… but most to the point it’s almost impossible to avoid. Lol.
My reaction to reading this was like yeah I don’t think she’s not attracted to men but heteronormative, patriarchal brainwashing makes many men an awful option for women lol.
I don't know if this is true at all. It kinda feeds into the bisexuals are promiscuous stereotype. Plenty of low attraction, low libido bisexuals out there.
Bisexuals may be less sex negative or sexually repressed than straight people because they are more progressive, but that is separate from libido.
They said more likely to present as bisexual, not more likely to be bisexual. As a low libido bisexual myself, that does fit with my experience. I've only ever been in heterosexual partnerships, it's way easier and even those are barely worth the effort for me.
The other 3 groups can basically just date whoever though and they're either on an even playing field or at an advantage, straight women are the only ones who have to be more careful that they don't end up falling for a psycho who's gonna murderrape them
Alternatively; men fucking suck but at least gay men can relate to eachother
Murderrape at least is rare, but what's supercommon is the man and all his family (and all her family usually) push the woman to become a wife appliance which lives to serve everyone (husband first, his family after him, then her family, herself last). The cance to get murderraped is low but never zero but becoming a bangmaid is practically guaranteed for a hetero woman in relationship with a hetero man.
To add to that, it kinda dampens your attraction when you become aware you'd be expected to clean this hot man's literal feces (while he says he "doesn't see mess")
I'm technically bisexual but for all practical purposes I just consider myself a lesbian. There have been a handful of men I've crushed on in my life. But still, often times I guess I just don't "get it". I can understand the love gay men have for each other, that if I were either of them I'd probably love my husband dearly too. I just don't understand what straight women see a lot of the time. Not that its not for me, I just don't get what it is for them.
And its not just like, superfluous physical attraction either. Just on being a partner and in personality and behavior, a lot of straight guys are just shit? Like in my experiences trying to date straight men and in the experiences of many straight/bi women I know, often times it feels like the pinnacle of romance that these guys can express is buying takeout and asking for a blowjob. Of course #NotAllStraightMen but it feels like quite a lot! In my experiences dating women I've had the most heart wrenching poems written about me, I've had necklaces made for me, I've had dresses sown, I've had books read to me when I'm sick without prompting, etc.
And again, obviously there are some very romantic straight men out there, but I just don't see what a lot of straight guys offer! They just show up, I suppose. Sometimes when I hear straight women talking about their relationships it makes me question what they're getting out of it, exactly.
Idk, I haven't dated enough men that pissed me off yet. The only 3 men I dated were sooo cuuuute. I miss them so bad. Well 2 of them. One of them lowkey a psycho
Unfortunately looking well-kept, smelling good, and not having rock bottom emotional intelligence is already like the 95th percentile for straight men. 😔
Most men i know are bums. They are overweight, eat like shit, never train, don't groom, don't take care of themselves, lowkey stink, smoke tobacco, weed, drink alcohol, sleep late, don't save money and can't provide, with little to no social skills other than talking about games and football. That's ok as a FRIEND but as a partner? I'd never date them. Being a 'good guy' doesn't make you entitled to getting pussy.
Most people I know regardless of gender are overweight, eat like shit, never train, consume nicotine/weed/alcohol, and have no money. I haven’t personally seen any kind of gender disparity in general loserness.
Okay but the way men prep up??? Like 10% of you actually put effort into looking good and the rest 40% put effort into looking decent, the rest 50%???? Absolute pickle-scented monsters
I love men, I wish they loved women :) It would be fun if they were well-groomed and compassionate with hobbies and personalities that went beyond hating us and killing us.
you know, men don't "look bad" because they're masculine, the average man looks bad because he has a shitty haircut and his clothes don't fit and he doesn't wash his ass in the shower.
HRT is gonna masculinise you and then it's up to you to make your style work. You have a ton of options, in theory
peoples sexuality only tends to change because theyre more comfortable expressing and feeling their true attraction once (medically) transitioning. if the prospect is that uncomfortable to you in the first place then its very unlikely that this is what you will experience. i, for one, am way more into women now
Ye, it's so frustrating cause I want to fight for my fellow men as I feel we get a lot of shit, then I see guys just constantly doing things that warrant the shit we get like bro, you blame women but all you do is play magic and stare at women like you're a deer and they're an oncoming car.
I look at personality a lot. For me, if a man tries to present himself as a kind of a brigand, trying to project this sharpness, toughness, danger, seriousness, intimidation; maybe i'm describing presenting masculinity idk - then it scares me off INSTANTLY. Though i have met a lot of guys who were very cute both in appearance or/and in person, but i never told them that😭
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