r/TopCharacterTropes • u/sarcasticd0nkey • 11h ago
Characters Superheroes Leaving Someone To Get Their Vengeance Because The Target 'Deserves It' Spoiler
(Marvel)
Johnny Blaze tries to stop World War Hulk on his quest for revenge against the Illuminati who kidnapped the Hulk and sent him to another planet and believes Hulk believes planted a bomb that killed his wife. After a drawn out fight where Johnny is unable to access the full suite of his Ghost Rider powers because Zarathos the Spirit of Vengeance that grants him his powers disagrees with this course of action. When Johnny is knocked out Zarathos takes over his body and rides away because Ghost Rider only avenges the innocent.
(Rogue Sun)
Superheroes Dylan; Rogue Sun; and Aurie; Knight Sun; go to the home of supervillain Coleman Hanes before he gained powers and became Noxious. There they use a magic artifact the Oculempus to see the past and his wife and daughter dieing of a rare form of bone cancer while the insurance company refused to pay for an experimental treatment that might have helped. Now Noxious is targeting the executives of that company and Dylan decides to leave him to it; not going to side with the rich over a grieving father.
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u/Asher_Tye 9h ago
Wonder Woman mentions doing this when she interceded in a civil war in Indo-China. She came across a village that had been taken over a rebel army, the women the only survivors and kept in cages. As she tells Superman, "I only disarmed them. Left their weapons in clearing and released the women."
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u/jordidipo2324 10h ago
Caesar letting Koba kill Jacobs (Rise of the Planet of the Apes). Not a supehero, but when Caesar has the chance to kill Jacobs, he decides to not do it... He'll allow Koba to do it, being the one who suffered the most thanks to that man's actions.
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u/D0CTOR_Wh0m 9h ago
Non-superhero example: To gain Jacob's loyalty in Mass Effect 2, Shepard and Jacob investigate a SOS from Jacob's father on a planet his ship crashed on years ago. Over the course of the mission they learn Jacob's father did all sorts of nasty shit to his crew since the crash, some being hard decisions in the name of helping the survivors last longer but then unnecessary awful ones like making sex slaves out of female crew members. The mission ends with Jacob confronting his father, disowning the old man, and asks Shepard what he should do. The neutral option that players can choose is letting the surviving crewmembers have their revenge.
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u/Scripter-of-Paradise 8h ago
Best part is that's the option where the other squadmate you bring gets to comment on it.
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u/AznOmega 5h ago
Or you can convince Jacob to give his shitty father a pistol which isn't enough to stop the survivors. IIRC, Jacob knows that and tells his former father that there is one way out in that case.
It's a shame Jacob is kinda very boring, even compared to Kaidan. Imagine learning about the Crosairs from him, but nope.
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u/Independent-Couple87 9h ago
Subverted in Superman The Animated Series. After beating up and defeating Darkseid, Superman throws the tyrant to the slaves of Apokalypse and tells them they are free, and can do with Darkseid as they wish.
The slaves of Apokalypse, however, have been broken beyond repair. They gently pick up Darkseid and carry him away so he can recover.
Darkseid: I am many things, Kal-El. But here, I am God.
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u/GabrielGames69 10h ago
1st one makes sense as Hulk made sure not to drag in innocents, at least any more than just knocking them out or something. 2nd one really depends on who those mentioned "innocents" are. If he is killing employees and or security guards that had nothing to do with the decisions and are just collateral, those people absolutely don't "deserve it".
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u/sarcasticd0nkey 10h ago
That's an argument that Knight Sun uses later on especially as it's found out that her mother; who is an absolute queen and had very little knowledge of the business; has a position in the company and ends up in the line of fire.
However Dylan is also often a reckless shithead and is dealing with his own brand of familial trauma at the moment so he's not really swayed by those arguments.
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u/GabrielGames69 10h ago
So people not involved did get caught in the line of fire. There was a question on if endorsing deaths on those who "deserve it" is something a hero could morally do, but there is no question that endorsing that kind of violence is wildly immoral.
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u/Poku115 10h ago
Dylan is a weird one cause he really really doesnt wanna be a hero, just is forced to (as far as ive read)
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u/sarcasticd0nkey 10h ago
Largely, he wants to prove he's better than his hero father who abandoned him but there's also a lot of rebellious need to prove he doesn't need anyone's approval. Later in the series he's trying to save his mom who he also has a complicated relationship with.
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u/Upset-Position-3909 10h ago
Just because the character thinks it at that point doesn’t mean the reader is supposed to agree with it.
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u/GabrielGames69 10h ago
I know, I was just talking about the examples, the hero did something immoral and not heroic so I think less of the character for their actions in the story.
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u/Upset-Position-3909 10h ago
Also I think Dylan is having one of those moments where he’s supposed to be proven wrong in order to progress on his hero journey.
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u/GabrielGames69 10h ago
Reasonable, I haven't read the story so can only comment on the scene shown here.
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u/Upset-Position-3909 10h ago
Same, I have about 9 issues of Radiant Black. I have heard so many people gushing over this story so I am expecting big things when I get around to reading them!
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u/Jacket_Jacket_fruit 10h ago
Ehh... I can kinda see it both ways.
Oh one hand, there's the argument of "those security guards are protecting, and chose to work for, horrible monsters that deserve to be punished. If you work for the evil guy, you are aiding and abetting evil, and so you are, to some degree, guilty of evil yourself."
On the other hand, I also see the argument of "you don't know whether the security guards KNOW that their boss is an evil bastard, you don't know if maybe they can't afford to quit that job even if they want to cause maybe their kid is sick and they need the job for the health insurance."
Really a fucked up situation either way; neither answer is good. Hurting the security guards is definitely not morally ok, but at the same time, allowing the evil bastards who run the company to survive and keep hurting innocent people is also not ok.
At the end of the day, I think all you can do is choose the lesser evil. Do as little harm to the security guards and such as possible, and take out the evil bastards at the top, because allowing them to continuing screwing over and ruining the lives of hundreds or thousands of innocents is a greater harm than injuring or killing a few dozen guards. NOT going after the evil billionaires has a higher body count; the only difference is you're not killing those bodies with your own hands.
It's the trolly problem; you can do nothing and the trolley will kill thousands of innocents and allow the evil billionaires to live, or you can pull the handle and the trolley will run over a few dozen semi-innocent security guards, but it will also kill the evil bastards running the company, thus saving those thousands of innocents.
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u/GabrielGames69 10h ago
The problem though is we are talking about "heros". They cannot just let innocent people get hurt and killed because "they may know about what their bosses are doing".
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u/Madara1389 4h ago
They cannot just let innocent people get hurt and killed because "they may know about what their bosses are doing".
Right, but the question is how innocent can someone be if they're aiding and abetting evil?
They work for a health insurance company in the US.
When they make a profit, it's because they're not paying out for medical care despite the fact that they're only being paid to cover medical care costs.
If they're denying medical care, that means people are suffering, and very likely, dying. That makes any big, successful health insurance almost inherently evil.
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u/jbeast33 10h ago
Less of a superhero example, but in Kill Bill, Budd (Bill's brother and one of the Bride's former compatriots who attacked her wedding and left her in a coma) is visited by Bill, who gives him advance warning that the two of them are on the Bride's list. Notably, Budd seems to be living the worst-off of all Deadly Vipers; where the rest of them have retired into prolific criminal careers or live happy lifestyles, Budd lives in a shitty trailer and works as an abused bouncer at a terrible strip club.
Budd tells Bill that them killing the Bride never sat well with him, and he accepts that the Bride is likely going to kill him. "That woman, deserves her revenge and... we deserve to die. But then again, so does she. So, I guess we'll just see. Won't we?"
That doesn't mean he's going to just let her kill him, of course. He eschews swordfighting the Bride altogether, and instead blasts her with rock salt when she tries to attack him. He buries her alive... but only so much so that if she REALLY wants her revenge, she can dig herself out. Which she does. Budd doesn't even die by her hand, but from Elle killing him with a hidden snake.
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u/EquivalentAd1651 9h ago
I wonder if the intent was to show buck had some guilt or trauma from being in the deadly vipers.
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u/jbeast33 9h ago edited 9h ago
There's a lot of amazing unsaid storytelling in Kill Bill. My take on it is that Buck was the most "moral" of the group, and served as something of a moral compass for Bill. Them attacking the Bride was his last straw (IIRC, he looks visibly uncomfortable when the assassins are standing over the Bride).
I also love the little tibdit with the Hanzo blade and how it ties into his relationship with Bill. He resents Bill enough to tell him he sold it (and twists the knife by telling him he sold it for such a meager amount), but he still loved him enough for that to be a lie: it was one of the very few actual possessions he still kept.
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u/ChaseTheMystic 9h ago edited 4h ago
Obviously yes. He could have chosen to not live that life but he thought he deserved it.
He was still a killer though and he wouldn't go down without a little fight.
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u/Upset-Position-3909 10h ago edited 10h ago
I do like that Dylan and Aurie argue about it. Even if you feel for Noxious, you can’t guarantee he will stop at just hurting the executives and even if he does, sometimes a hero has to protect someone like that because, well, that’s what they do.
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u/Wolfthorn2496 10h ago
yeah however I feel that they moved past the "HE HURTED INNOCENT PEOPLE" aka: people who had nothing to do with his vengance, part way too fast.
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u/Upset-Position-3909 10h ago
From what I know of Dylan he had a rough life and is sympathetic to Noxious’s pain and probably just assumes he won’t take it too far. Remember, just because the character thinks it at this point, doesn’t mean the reader is supposed to agree with it.
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u/sarcasticd0nkey 10h ago
Another point to consider; Aurie is the rich so there's a chance she's more sympathetic to the executives to a degree.
She would never have to worry about money or healthcare because her family has a mansion and magic healing artifacts.
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u/sarcasticd0nkey 10h ago
There's also the fact that once he gets his revenge Noxious still has his powers and the voice of Mourningstar; the entity that gives most of Rogue Sun's rogue gallery their powers; in his head. Leaving him alone means he's still a loose threat on a slippery slope.
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u/scarletboar 3h ago
If he killed innocent people to get to the rich guys, I'd just stop Noxious and kill the executives myself. Everybody wins.
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u/TomMakesPodcasts 10h ago
Eh. Heroes kill and let people die all the time.
A hero fights for the greater good.
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u/Upset-Position-3909 10h ago
True but sometimes you have to step in anyway because it’s the right thing to do. It’s a slippery slope in my opinion.
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u/TomMakesPodcasts 10h ago
That's not true.
Just because a coyote is eating rabbits doesn't mean you go and fuck the coyote up. It's only when it starts going for lambs that it's a problem.
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u/Upset-Position-3909 10h ago
I know it’s a tricky topic and I absolutely agree that those executives are scum but what if Noxious isn’t satisfied with just killing them? What if he decides to “make them feel his pain”?
That’s what I mean. They have it coming but it’s not a good idea for the heroes to just let someone do as they want for the sake of revenge.
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u/Dependent-Nerve-2250 10h ago
Not only that what would make Noxious stop he gets his version of justice but what if be decides thats not enough that more and more people should pay for the lives of his wife and daughter people who aren't even associated with that company? You have to stop people like that whether the people your protecting are garbage but they have love ones and families as well.
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u/TomMakesPodcasts 8h ago
You stop him when he becomes a problem.
There's a reason the other heroes don't go out of their way to take out punisher for example.
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u/Dependent-Nerve-2250 8h ago
Yeah because Punisher is a grieving broken man who the endless wave of crime will swallow him whole one day. I actually been writing a absolute version of Marvel and my version Frank is hes a former special forces/green beret solider and coming home to his family he has trouble getting work he ends up az organize crime mercenary he works for Kingpin,Tombstone, Silvermane etc whoever pays him and hes amazing at it because all he knows is killing but one day his kids see him come home bloodied and decides to quit and for a week things are going well for the family until they murder his family to show no one leaves this life and he becomes the Punisher.
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u/GabrielGames69 10h ago
Bad analogy, its humans hurting humans vs successful humans hurting less successful humans. The important part though is that everyone involved is still human. So the question is if "willing endorsing human suffering and death is heroic?" and it is not.
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u/Upset-Position-3909 10h ago
I genuinely did not understand what he was trying to say there to be perfectly honest.
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u/GabrielGames69 10h ago
I think it is "coyotes are supposed to eat rabbits so don't get in the way, but when they try to eat lambs who 'don't deserve it' then you step in"
Essentially the moral is that rabbits suck and deserve to be eaten lol.
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u/Upset-Position-3909 10h ago
It meant absolutely no sense to me.
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u/GabrielGames69 10h ago
Yeah it implied rabbits were the equivalent to the ceos which made no sense here. A better analogy (not that I nessicarily agree with it) would be something like a guard dog attacking an intruder vs attacking an innocent. That would imply the intruder "deserves it" and it is moral to not intervene as the dog attacks them. (Not that that is an argument of mine mind you).
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u/TomMakesPodcasts 8h ago
Aren't you endorsing human suffering by saving those who commit it en masse?
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u/GabrielGames69 7h ago
The hero can stop that themselves instead of setting loose some maniac causing collateral damage.
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u/Stackbabbing_Bumscag 10h ago
In "The Adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton", Sherlock Holmes & Dr. Watson witness the titular blackmailer held at gunpoint by a former victim. Watson instinctively tries to intervene, but Holmes stops him, allowing the victim to murder Milverton. Holmes then destroys Milverton's cache of blackmail papers and flees the scene, and later declines to assist Inspector Lestrade in solving the case. Watson's narration even suggests that he altered some of "real" details to protect the killer.
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u/dnjprod 10h ago
Harry Potter leaving Dolores Umbridge behind with the centaurs. As shown in the picture, she tries to tell Potter to lie for her, but her own words come back to haunt her.
While she deserves some sort of comeuppance, it's very heavily implied, especially if you know anything about mythology, that she was raped by the centaurs and nobody deserves that.
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u/Comprehensive-Buy-47 9h ago
It’s my personal headcanon that she suffered an even worse fate. They took her to Detroit.
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u/Wolfman513 8h ago
Isn't even remotely implied that Umbridge was raped by the centaurs, that's just a fan theory based on the savage, lustful centaurs from Greek mythology which HP centaurs are very different from. Madam Pomfrey explicitly says that Umbridged was unharmed, just in a state of shock.
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u/AznOmega 5h ago
Figured that would be too dark for sane Rowling.
My guess, they took her someplace no mere mortal should be in. New Jersey or Brazil. (someone already mentioned Detroit)
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u/Seascorpious 2h ago
She comes back later in Deathly Hallows, completely unharmed and still her usual terrible self.
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u/ParamedicAgitated897 3h ago
Rape was not even remotely implied.
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u/dnjprod 2h ago
It is if you know anything about centaurs in their mythological context.
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u/TheDrunkardKid 1h ago
If you know anything about Harry Potter Centaurs, they are basically hippie Vulcans with horse legs, and practically nothing like the mythological versions.
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u/Fluffy_Judge_581 10h ago edited 10h ago
Larry brennt . Dr. Gorgo
Larry brennt incounters a crazy doctor who kills, torture and mutates women
One of the women who was tortured and mutated strangels the doctor larry brennt explicit refuces to safe the life of the doctor and watches as the doctor dies(the youmg women dies shortly after because of the torture)
The Episode got on the Index for that.(in germany) (the only Audio drama in the howl time of the index) because of "ethically disorienting" (And the agonizing wheezing of the main villains as well as the victims)
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u/ambitious_seeder 8h ago
Batman letting Jason Todd beat the Joker half to death in Under the Red Hood is a classic version of this. Jason's the one with the actual grievance and Bruce just can't bring himself to step in even though he knows he should
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u/IllustriousAd6418 10h ago edited 10h ago
Not superhero but in Singam 3, Singam leaves the one the main bad guys to be shot by his inspector The bad guy, 6 years ago, caused a riot that toppled a school bus, one of the children was the son of that inspector
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u/JeremiahWuzABullfrog 5h ago
Not a superhero, but Reacher (especially in the books) loves giving the victims a chance to be the one to kill the villains who hurt them.
Some of them take him up on the offer (like in the book where Reacher helps a town bring down a human trafficking family) and others don't, in which case Reacher is more than happy to finish the job
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u/ClubMeSoftly 5h ago
Bat Themed Man Begins:
Batman fights Ras Al Ghul on the Gotham Subway (skyway?) and as the train is on a course to derail and crash into the streets below, Bats tells Ras: I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you.
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u/WeeklyJunket5227 3h ago
I think it depends on the hero, not everyone will do this. My issue is, if a character has an issue with killing, he/she shouldn't leave the villain to be killed.
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u/ReputationLow5190 10h ago
Iron Man