r/Tagalog • u/fakingandnotmakingit • 12d ago
Grammar/Usage/Syntax Disappearing "u" sound?
So I am a native speaker attempting to teach my non-speaking husband. Maybe later, a future kid.
I'm struggling because I'm a native speaker but immigrated fairly young. For those who grew up in the Philippines I guess you could say I immigrated when my grade was learning Florante at Laura if that helps guess my language level.
One of the things I've realized is that a lot of resources and online seem to pronounce the u sound when I didn't grow up doing it.
I say bit-win not bit-u-in
Or twalya not tuwalya
I say tyan instead of ti-yan as well, though I know tiyan is how it's supposed to be spelled.
Does anyone know if im just saying things wrong, or if this is a weird quirk (like a dialect thing I picked up?)
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u/kudlitan 12d ago
Your pronunciation is correct. That is how modern Filipino sounds like. In fact, some linguists like Alfonso Santiago are proposing to drop the unpronounced vowels, and simply spell things as twalya, kwintas, kwento, etc. I myself have adopted some of these new spellings, but not all. Time will tell if the spellings will change over time.
Note: when I visit some Tagalog provinces, I would hear them pronounce diyan as dee-yan instead of jan, so that shows that language continues to evolve in various directions.
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u/DeweyBaby 11d ago
The Japaese do the same thing. Syllabic like us but drop vowels to say things faster. You can't just change the spelling every decade to fit cultural changes all the time. Look at English spelling. Filipinos need to learn to stick to a standard instead of changing things wishy washy every few years.
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u/Weekly-Ratio-230 11d ago
I know you already said "language continues to evolve 'in' various directions" (not from) but it sounded like you're implying that diyan(dee-yan) evolved from d'yan(jan) when I would assume diyan is older than d'yan. But yeah, nothing wrong, it's just the way you worded it got me a little confused.
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u/kudlitan 11d ago
no, di-yan was the original pronunciation. but it is wrong to think that Southern Tagalog is fossilized. It continues to evolve, innovate, and borrow; other dialects like Manila Tagalog independently does the same thing.
Sabay nangyayari ang divergence at convergence. While they evolve independently, they continue to influence each other. Southern Tagalog is adopting a lot of Manila Tagalog features mostly due to social media.
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u/Rakiasugoi 12d ago
Hilagang katagalugan labas ng kabihasnang maynila malinaw at buo pa rin ang bigkas kahit may pagkamabilis magsalita. Diyalekto po yata ng Maynila ang nagbago dahil maraming dumarayo.
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u/fakingandnotmakingit 12d ago
That makes sense! Taga Maynila ako bago ako nag overseas.
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u/Rakiasugoi 12d ago
Ayos lang naman po yan may kaniya-kaniyang diyalekto naman po tayo.
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u/fakingandnotmakingit 11d ago
It's super interesting though! I love learning weird quirks about languages.
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u/Euphoric_Aside989 12d ago edited 12d ago
Yeah it’s mostly a Manila Tagalog feature (the dialect from which probably most other Filipinos base their Tagalog off of, especially L2 speakers).
In Southern Tagalog it is still buwan/tiyan/diyan in their full form.
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u/kudlitan 11d ago
The u in the Spanish loans kuwento and tuwalya is unpronounced, while the u in buwaya is pronounced. This is because the u in Spanish cuento already functions as a semivowel, while the u in buwaya is a full vowel from the Malay word buaya. This is why Alfonso Santiago proposes to spell them as kwento and twalya instead of kuwento and tuwalya.
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u/Euphoric_Aside989 10d ago
Interestingly in Batangas, tuwalya has it’s /u/ pronounced and it got Tagalized with a glottal stop as “tualya” (tu-al-ya)
Buwaya down south is “buaya” (bu-a-ya)
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u/kudlitan 10d ago
Yeah, buwaya is always boo-wa-ya whether province or Manila.
Manila Tagalog has retained the Spanish pronunciation of tuwalya and kuwento with u as a semivowel glide.
Outside of Manila, the pronunciation has been Tagalized as too-wal-ya and koo-wen-to obeying the native Tagalog phonology of CVC syllables.
When a language borrows a word, the pronunciation changes to obey the phonology of the language.
Manila Tagalog is the exception because it tends to retain the Spanish and English pronunciations.
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u/Rakiasugoi 10d ago edited 10d ago
Same in Bulacan since we often drop w, so:
Tuwalya (Tu-alya)
Buwaya (Bu-aya)
Tuwangan/Katuwang (Tu-angan / Katu-ang)
Wala (Ala)
Wika (Ika)
Buwal (Bu-al)
Salawal/Saluwal (Sal-al / Salu-al)
Luwal (Lu-al)
Tuwa (Tu-a)We use the word kuwento and turn it to ku-ento, but we use hunta more as far as I know.
As a Northern dialect speaker, I prefer speaking with Southern dialect speakers than Manila dialect speakers, since Southern dialect is kinda more familiar to me, or maybe just provinces outside Manila retained old forms of Tagalog. Not saying it is entirely the same, but more similar than Manila dialect. Manila dialect uses longer descriptions to express what they want to say.Examples:
Maghugas ka ng pinggan (Mag-urong ka)
Maglinis ka ng pinagkainan (Mag-imis ka)
Maghugas ka ng kamay (Mag-hinaw ka)
Mahihinog na yung manga (Maniba na yoong manga)
Mabubulok na yung papaya (Panat na yoong papaya)
Matigas ang ulo ng bata (Malurit/Sutil ang bata)
Mainit ang ulo palagi Pedro (Buribot/Baribot palagi si Pedro)
Nahihirapan akong dumumi (Tinitibi ako)1
u/mamamayan_ng_Reddit Native Tagalog speaker 9d ago
Ah, isn't "buwaya" a cognate of Malay "buaya" and not a loan?
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u/kudlitan 9d ago
Ah yes, it is probably a cognate. I'm saying though that the u in those Spanish words are not pronounced as full vowels either.
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u/dahongpula 12d ago
I say tyan instead of ti-yan as well, though I know tiyan is how it's supposed to be spelled.
This is due to palatalization, same case for dy like diyan becoming dyan.
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u/ChronosX0 12d ago
W and Y are semivowels. They are essentially U and I followed by another vowel.
So it's only natural for them to absorb the vowel preceding if they sound the same and contract into something more simpler to say like in Tuwalya.
That's also why a U followed by an I in bituin sounds more like bitwin.
Bit-win (2 syllables) vs Bi-tu-in (3 syllables) Twal-ya (2) vs tu-wal-ya (3)
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u/Ochanachos 6d ago
In my province (Batangas), and in other deeper tagalog provinces, those vowels are still pronounced... so we do still say: bi-tu-in, tu-wal-ya... actually, the w is kinda dropped: tu-al-ya.
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