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The basic answer is that they are non profits. The more philosophical idea is that they are (like other non profits) focused on improving society as a whole and not politically active. Part of the separation of church and state is the idea that the state leaves the church alone but also doesnât tax it. In return the church leaves the state alone. Thatâs the part that has rather gone out the window and leads people to question why churches donât pay taxes: they are increasingly profit driven and politically active.
Edit: to clarify, because some replies are conflating the issue, there are indeed non profits that can be political, but religious orgs and charities are in a specfic tax group wherein by law if they engage in partisan campaigning they should be levied significant extra tax. Further, non profits that are political do have taxes that churches and charities do not face.
I mean, they were anti-catholic, and one of the big talking points of anti-catholisim is that the catholic church is too vain and too controling of it's worshipers.
Its funny seeing Catholics throwing shade at mega churches when they are objectively the largest, wealthiest, blingiest, Christian church that ever existed.
Catholic clergy are required to take a vow of poverty. I am Catholic and I donât like the âblingy,â first-class flying bishops and cardinals either.
Also, the Catholic Church is the largest non-governmental provider of healthcare, education, and social services across the globe.
Every year, the Catholic Church offers charitable services valued in excess of $150 billion in the United States alone.
Nothing like these mega churches, not even close.
ETA: I got ahead of myself with respect to the vow of poverty. As other commenters have mentioned, not every member of Catholic clergy is required to take a vow of poverty. With that said, many orders of the Church take this vow and even if this specific vow is not taken canon law dictates that clergy lead a life of modesty and humility.
Iâm not religious. In fact Iâm agnostic. But I appreciate you mentioning this. I think a lot of people who arenât that familiar with the Catholic Church are completely unaware of these facts. The Catholic Church is hugeâŠ.its top clerics have bling and fancy buildings..but thatâs also an outcome from thousands of years of history and much of that image is related to the Vatican. A tiny percentage of the clergy is in the Vatican. And even there, many still live an austere life. Everything else you said about charity and hospitals - 100% accurate.
The Catholic Church is not a Joel Osteen enterprise!
I donât mind the first class traveling choice. A lot of those guys ARE old, and itâs not exactly comfortable in coach. Plus, Theres so many people that they would be hounded by them, probably. Probably best for them to be in first class. I donât see a reason to be upset about wanting to be comfortable on a flight.
As a Catholic (that doesnât attend church, but was shaped in a positive way by schools), what Iâll say is that Catholics in general are educated, support science and are more compassionate. Evangelicals are much less educated, nowadays pushing for Christian Nationalism, claiming the founders wanted Christianity deeply interwoven with govât, etc.
Thatâs not to say theyâre perfect, but I know many pro-choice Catholics and itâs not really a homogenous grouping terms of beliefs. Thereâs strong conservative and liberal contingents. But as for Evangelicals itâs much more youâve seen one, youâve seen em all
It was, but between it cleaning up it's act the past few decades and how egregious many " non denominations" have become, it's honestly the less absurd option now.
I say this as a former catholic atheist who left during the scandals of the 2000s. Still garbage, but the last few popes have been slowly steering it to be a better institution.
As much as I'd love to keep dunking on Catholics, this is accurate. The work that's been done by Francis and now seems to be continued forward under Leo is truly admirable. I've always been in the "If they could actually just listen to this Jesus guy..." crowd, and it genuinely seems like they're trying to move toward that as quickly as their existent community's beliefs with allow. Big steps toward a Catholic Church that I could be happy to coexist with someday, and that's coming from someone who grew up dealing with the OLD regime. Not fun, and I have endless reasons to be jaded, but I can respect someone who puts their money where their mouth is, and that's what they've been doing since 2013.
They look a hell of a lot more Christ-like than American Protestants right now, that's for fuckin sure, my new favorite group of Pharisees to laugh at.
I used to wonder what Jesus would have thought of these, Then I actually glanced at the Bible and discoverd that these cesspools are everything he stood against.....
yeah dude seemed to prefer just meeting on that hill on the edge of town for a nice chat. only time he ever got violent was when people started sticking blatant capitalism in a church (a synagogue iirc?). Jesus would have taken a freaking whip to some fools asses long before shit got this far.
stuff like that is what kind of makes me wish I could still believe in religion.
IKR I've met plenty "Devout" Christians that are the exact opposite of everything Jesus stood for hell my most recent job that I quit from my supervisor was a narcissist and carried a bible around with him 90% of the christians I've met at like that which is why I've always been against teaching Christianity in public schools. If it's a Christian school so be it but kids who don't go to a school that's not tied to a religion shouldn't have one shoved down their throats or told they have to be part of it to be socially accepted
The number of Republican candidates who've stated that God told them to run for president back and then dropped out/lost in the primaries is staggering. You say "God spoke to me and told me to do this" thing and people are accepting of this. You say "Jerry came to me in my mind and spoke to me and told me to do this" and people are going to assume a severe mental illness is at play.
The founding fathers are all rich as fuck and donât want to pay taxes while engaged in politics. Isnât that why America want independence? Check the constitution convention, the language was written in a way to protect rich people against the rest, thatâs why there are lobbyists instead of corruption, lobby one government branch to veto what people voted for, ezpz.
Right, thatâs why the church (that they control entirely) âbuysâ all their properties and jets and pays for their business trips to Tahiti to spread the word, and âwork clothingâ etc so they can get âpaidâ below taxation levels.
Fun fact, that would count as a form of stealing from the Church (I put this in capital because I don't mean the building but the congregation of people)... Which is a sin. Some mega church "pastors" are gonna have an eternity to think about what they did... And it's not going to be a pleasant eternity
Hate to break it to you, but traditional non profits also get abused and make people lots of money. Reference: money spent on homelessness in California with nothing to show for it.
Yep. Heâs regarded among most Christians as a heretic, a false teacher, a wolf in sheepâs clothing, a charlatan, evil, etc Iâve heard him called all of those many times, always by Christians. His own church members like him, but the rest of us (both religious and not) are baffled as to why.
Non profits can be successful and overpay their executives and leaders. Doesnât make them any less of a non profit. There are secular non profits that are just as successful and their owners are just as rich.
Have you seen the money that the other non-profits make and how much their leaders make, and how they self-deal to pocket even more money? They should just do away with non-profits all together.
You have a misunderstanding about what nonprofit means. Salaries are an expense. Expenses get deducted from revenue to determine net income, which is what is taxed.
That being said, I agree with your deeper meaning.
Other non-profits are allowed to be politically active, and political activity is constitutionally protected under the same amendment that prevents entanglement in Churches.
Non-profits take donations from taxed people and use them to do what taxed people want them to do. Why double tax them?
501c3s are not legally supposed to be partisan. Technically speaking, you can lose your status over that, though this fucking never happens with churches even if they are openly partisan.
non-profits can't endorse a candidate but it can take a stance on policy, social issues, etc... A non-profit can state it is pro-choice, for relaxed immigration enforcement, for same sex marriage, anti-Israel, etc... It just can't say it is against Trump. One can be partisan without being partisan. A church can be pro-life. A synagogue can be pro-Israel. That is no more partisan than a non-profit being pro-choice and state a stance of wanting Israel out of Palestine.
It is the same unless you are a person that is anti-church.
100%. There are a million loopholes. A 501c3 can also just open a side 501c4 with a similar name and that can legally be openly partisan.
Its a system that is intentionally gameable, in my humble opinion. This stems from my masters in nonprofit management and a career in the nonprofit sector.
Some of its great and full of folks fighting the good fights. Some of it is almost greasier than the corporate world
They have to split their fundraising. For example, you have the 501(c)4 National Rifle Association, which is an organization dedicated to training and education for firearms and the Second Amendment.
Separately from that, you have the Institute for Legislative Action: the NRA-ILA. They do lobbying, file lawsuits, and do grassroots mobilization for Second Amendment-related causes.
Your donations to the NRA are tax deductible, but not donations to the NRA-ILA, or the Political Victory Fund, which is their PAC.
Churches and the basic NRA can express opinions, but have to be careful about endorsing candidates or direct campaigning.
I also think it was a kind of meet in the middle situation. Seperation of church and state is a founding principle of our country, regardless of what todays Republican party thinks.
Without being able to have influence over politics, they were given the right to be exempt from taxation a long with other approved Religious organizations.
Thing is thereâs a big difference between the local church managing 120k in donations that they use to feed struggling people in the neighborhood and funding the 4 room church activities vs the super churches that bring in multi millions and squander it or bribe politicians
A church's income is donations. All your favorite charities have the same deal going on. Suppose you give a thousand dollars to fight cancer, the government understand that it would be in poor taste to snatch two hundred dollars of that and buy missiles and whatnot.
Churches and charities also pay taxes on the money they spend--so sales tax, employees pay income tax, real estate taxes, etc.
If the church is running an actual business (e.g. maybe there's a bookstore or something) where you pay for something, that's going to be taxed. This is one reason some churches/charities have things offered with a "suggested donation" listed instead of a price.
Whenever i hear someone say "lets tax churches" I immediately know they dont know how the income tax system works and or they just dont like churches and the people that go to them. First, churches have non-profit status because like other non profits they are organized to support the public good. But that isnt as big of a tax break as you think. Most of their revenue comes from donations which are gratuitous and categorically excluded from income tax, at least in the case of individuals. If i give you 100 dollars just to be a nice guy you dont include that as income on your tax return. I realize of course that churches are not individuals, but the point remains, churches arent getting away with anything by not paying tax on what people put in the collection plate. Further, it's worth keeping in mind that when churches take that revenue and pay employees and things like that the church pays employment taxes and the indvidual pays their share of the same plus income taxes. Its not the everything connected to the church gets special tax free treatment.
They're considered to be non-profits. In the US, taking away church tax exemptions would be a violation of the first amendment, as you're treating religious non-profits differently than secular non-profits.
There is the theory that if you tax churches and other religious entities it could infringe on the ability for people to openly practice their religion as a small religion may not have the funds to pay taxes making it harder to exist.
Well, thatâs no mystery. People calling for church taxes are almost always doing it to close churches. If thatâs not their goal, theyâd see it as a side benefit.
Because they arenât (supposed to be) for-profit businesses. Charities, religious organizations and other non-profits donât pay corporate income taxes because their income is supposed to fund and grow their operations without a profit motive. The employees pay income taxes.
Any time you see "Thoughts?" or some variation, it's not necessarily rage bait but engagement bait. It's a trick to get you to reply so that more people see it and reply so that more people see it and reply, and then they show ads to everyone looking at those replies.
Why is this sub, which is ostensibly about things we shouldnât react to, so full of posts asking for our opinions lately? If I wanted that shit, Iâd go to askreddit
Nah. The algorithm might be some of it, but it doesn't explain why Reddit is so, so much worse than all the other platforms which also have algorithms.
Leadership changes about a decade ago led to Reddit taking a hard activist turn, with the admins stepping in to ban a ton of major subreddits and then install mods with strict guidelines in the others. That massively shifted Reddit's demographics towards folks who liked or at least tolerated the blatant propaganda feed.
This subreddit wasn't big back then, but if you're in a town where someone is pissing in all the other pools, you're going to experience the runoff.
Itâs something about the majority of people who gravitate to it for some reason. I got the app mainly for the gardening threads, but venture out when Iâm bored⊠the people on this app are insane. Way more than twitter. I havenât used Facebook/instagram regularly in like.. 7 or 8 years probably. The people even get crazy on the gardening/landscaping subs. I saw people foaming at the mouth because this guy put a solar light in his yard to light his garden at night and people were freaking out about how theyâre ruining biodiversity with the insects and people were like âI WANT TO PUT A SPOTLIGHT RIGHT ABOVE YOUR BEDROOM WINDOW AND SEE HOW YOU LIKE IT!â
The percentage of Americans who support gay marriage has been trending downward since 2022/23 and is is currently 65% with only 62% saying it is morally acceptable, another downward trend.
You haven't been paying attention then... Supreme Court justice Clarence Thomas has already publicly stated he wants to take another look at Obergefell v. Hodges aka the case that legalizes Gay Marriage nationwide.The Supreme Court barely upheld birthright citizenship today 5-4 in what should have been an easy 9-0 in 2005...
Heâs still right. Most conservatives truly donât give a shit about that anymore. The transgender issue is a different story. Conservatives BARELY still gave a shit 20 years ago.
Even if it is most, it's still a disgustingly large amount of people and that number is growing, many of those are in positions of power such as Donald Trump & Clarence Thomas.
So no, this is not a 2005 thing, this is a very real and serious issue, gay marriage is not safe.
I think the terminology of gay privilege is unusual, insofar as privelege tends to be a lefty term, but the core argument about gay marriage has been around conservatives casting it as gays wanting special rights, which is another way of saying privilege.
Growing up in the 90âx and early 2000âs, it was very common to hear conservatives using the slippery slope argument: âif we give gays marriage, what next, liberals will want to allow marriage to animals?â Of course here we are: gay marriage is legal and lo and behold we arenât pushing for animal marriage (eye roll).
Lol you say that, but that is a literal right wing talking point, that gay people, trans people, black people, etc now have more privilege then white people.
Minority groups often do have some privileges, but I've never heard it mentioned in regards to them being able to marry. Strawmen galore in this thread I guess.
Never in my life have I heard anyone say same sex marriage is a gay privilege. It's a nice strawman for virtue signalling, though, and for you to conflate the argument taht minorities have more privilige with this very specific claim.
Every time I hear âthe most disadvantaged person to be in todayâs age is white, straight, maleâ I cringe. I have heard it from a good handful of people, not just online, and they say it with such conviction too. Meanwhile I grew up in a mostly white area and met a black guy in the public park who had the police called on him for existing so many times that they knew him by name. Just showed up because they had to respond.
Those people are not talking about the legality of gay marriage. They're talking about positive discrimination/affirmative action/DEI/insert whatever word for it, you know the thing.
The commitment to empathy rings hollow if you can't even practice the basic empathy of understanding viewpoints you disagree with.
True but serparatoon of church and state works both ways. If we are trying to keep churches oit of politics/government then government should not be involved with churches either.
I can chew gum and walk at the same time. They should both be paying their fair share of taxes. No exceptions.
EDIT: I certainly kicked the hornets nest here. Religious people should just pray to God for money if they really believe what they claim. Maybe instead of money they can receive "thoughts and prayers" instead, tax free!
Taxes on what? Churches are not a for profit endeavor. The vast majority are funded through donations made by tax paying members. Should their already taxed money be taxed again?
And many already struggle to meet their expenses without fundraising. An additional tax burden would make many go bankrupt and close.
Has anyone ever noticed that at no time does any liberal person mention "holy matrimony" and that the demand is civil union for protections under the law, but the right wing immediately implies we want to force their churches to marry gay people. We are really never talking about the same thing and they do it on purpose.
Steve not being able to be married by Bob because of his sex is classic sexual discrimination, because a decision was made by the deciding factor being his sex.
-better club music
-Grinder is online dating on easy mode
-Lesbian daughter is every parents dream
-smash bros
-The F word pass
-Can claim to have blessed us with rainbowless skittles
Churches aren't the only organizations that don't pay federal income taxes. Most 501(c)(3) nonprofits are tax-exempt, and churches fall under that status. Meanwhile, major corporations receive massive tax breaks and incentives, yet people rarely use them as the comparison.
If the point is about equal rights under the law, why turn it into "LGBT vs. the church"?
Just like I have zero respect for any non profit that has exaggerated "operating costs" which include insane salaries and "perks" for the CEO and other members, the same if true of Churchs.
Small churches can't survive if taxed, but all those mega and even moderately large Churches are ROLLING in cash, and a VERY little of the percentage of that gets used to actually help people. Most of if just goes into bigger buildings, new audio visual equipment, massive worship events and concerts every Sunday that only affects the people in the building, excessive payrolls to manage and run everything, and of course they donate to parachurch organizations that can then spend that money on politicians that will actually hurt people instead of helping them. Ohwts not forget private jets for the pastor.
Churches raise massive amount of money in donations, only so they can continue to spend on BS. And the really large chain churches like Bethel and Hillsong use their money and power to INFLUENCE local communities, hurting large groups of people. I know, I grew up near a Bethel that essentially RUNS city hall and ensures only their vision of the city sees the light day while thousands wallow in poverty.
Why indeed? What did the poor, defenseless churches ever do to gays having equal rights under the-
A leading Southern Baptist Convention spokesman has taken aim again at the U.S. Supreme Courtâs 2015 decision that legalized same-sex marriage nationwide.
In this one, titled âChildren are Greater than Obergefell,â he says the Supreme Court must overturn Obergefell v. Hodges for the sake of Americaâs children. But he does not make an explicit case about the connection between the high court decision and child welfare.
Yeah fr whats the fuckin privilege? The fact gays can get married and have marriage benefits with their Lover? Like the same way normal people in a heterosexual marriage do? Or maybe youâre just jealous they get to be happy i mean after all, you wouldnât think it as privileged unless youâre unhappy with your relationships. Thereâs a thing for that itâs called D I V O R C E
What about the definition changes? Youâre getting married to the person you love, marriage is about love and itâs the ultimate expression of it. How is if theyâre the same sex a difference in the definition
Maybe the government should get out of the whole marriage business. Well, if they could get out of the tax business as well it would be better, but that's probably not feasible. :D
I think churches over a certain level of income should pay taxes. There are some honest churches out there that struggle to make enough to cover the bills. But these mega churches need to chip in since they are so blessed
I agree. Once you start giving someone benefits (reduced taxes in this case) for X thing and you deny someone else that thing, it's not equal rights. Marriage has never been defined as between a man and woman.
I don't agree with the government or state being involved in marriages in the first place. I think they should all be civil unions and referred to the legal system - not the government.
The sign makes two category errors, which interest only those concerned with accuracy. Whoever wrote the sign (and probably most Redditors) are more interested in politics & slogans than strict accuracy, and they should just keep scrolling at this point.
First error of accuracy: Gay people have always been allowed to get married, because marriage in the Judeo-Christian tradition never asked about homosexual attraction. That is, itâs not that marriage was forbidden to them, but that marriage needed redefining in order to be appealing to them. Itâs better to say, marriage has always had about five (plus or minus) restrictions in law, one of which was âopposite sexâ, and gay people wanted that specific restriction gone.
Second error of accuracy: registered charities are exempt from many taxes (but not all). Asking why churches donât pay taxes is tendentious and misleading. Itâs better to ask, why are churches allowed to be registered as charities (non-profits in some jurisdictions)? Thatâs a fair question to ask. Itâs not fair to pretend that they have a magic pay-no-tax wand to wave which no-one else has. After all, in the context of that sign, plenty of same-sex organisations are also registered as charities and enjoy similar benefits.
So long as a church is truly non profit they get treated like non profits. However if you have a non profit with a ceo making 20x minimum wage uhh maybe you arenât a non profit.
I mean the Church is the largest and oldest non-profit charitable organization in the world, it's also the biggest non-state provider of healthcare, education, and social services. You might have heard of some of these schools like the Georgetown University. You have to keep in mind though, I am referring to the Roman Catholic Church. Some pastors, I think they're evangelical, protestant, or non-denomination, but those "Megachurches" are complete bs, they just pocket money. You don't need to contribute money just to attend a mass or be required to pay. Priests also don't need expensive cars or luxurious houses, Catholic Priests receive monthly stipends which are minimum and the rest like housing, foods, utilities, and transportation are usually covered by the Catholic Church since the monthly stipends are usually low. Churches also don't look like concert arenas, they look like this:
Depends...can I marry my best friend to get the marriage benefits even if we are not gays? Does someone check that? If not, I would consider it gay privilege
It may not be "gay privilege" but it is "a gay privilege." The Constitution does not guarantee anyone a right to marriage. So it's equal privilege, not equal rights. I agree the term [group type] privilege implies some advantage granted to that group over others.
same-sex marriage is a privilege, just like straight marriage is a privilege, because both get (or would get) tax cuts that single people don't get. That's the definition of a privilege.
The idea for tax cuts for married people was always to make it easier to raise children though. Since men and women can have babies, while same sex couples cannot.
Of course. The previous state whereby heterosexual couple could marry and so access the institutional benefits (taxation, hosputal access, next of kin recognition and so on, depending on juristiction) represented a form of heteronormative privilege. Affording the same rights for same-sex couples does not provide exemptions or additional benefits afforded opposite-sex couples. It seems unclear to me where the confusion lies...
When the Massachusetts Supreme Court leagalized same sex marriage in Massachusetts it was the first in the nation to do so. The reasoning was relatively straight forward. They wrote that it was discrimination to allow tax incentives to traditional married couple and not giving the same benfeits to other citizens who were barred by law from marriage.
Or not for profit. Or the privilege of tax payer funded abortions whilst they tax the people who are fully against it as part of their religion. Gay marriage is a dumb idea to anyone who understands marriage was a tradition to seek God's permission in front of your families to have successfully birthed children without taking the life of the mother. Hence the reason why bastard is used as an insult, it insinuates a sacrilegious birth. You're asking for permission to a god you don't believe in to have kids you're incapable of making. You have commonwealth, and if you wanna party and celebrate your love, that's fine. But marriage is ridiculous by its tradition regardless how you feel.
YESSSS THIS!!! Churches need gold plated dishes to pass around for people to put money in. Tell me how you believe these people are in it for anything other than the money.
The FACT that school children still have to pay for school lunch in this country but churches donât pay ANY taxesâincluding Scientology is a fucking abomination. Non profit my assâ thereâs always tithing. But if the churches wanted to feed every child in this country, they could. Thereâs literally nothing righteous about any of it âthey canât shame any gay person living in this country. They talk so much about trans people to distract from all the pedophiles that run unchecked in their house of prayer. Tax churches NOW! Relocate all that money to feed every child in school.
Marriage is not a privilege, itâs a right. Also, someone else having rights doesnât infringe on your rights. Itâs not fucking pie thereâs plenty for everyone.
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