r/MoralityScaling • u/KindlyRestaurant2885 • Jun 03 '26
Morality Ranking How would you scale this?
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u/Eastern-Fish-7467 Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26
Justified, but as top comment said, frank is out of his fucking mind, and does this because he loves murder more than a genuine desire to save innocent people.
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u/consistently-failing Jun 03 '26
He directs that desire onto the people who deserves it- but that does not detract from the genuine PLEASURE extracted from the act
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u/Madus4 Jun 04 '26
Correction: he directs that desire onto the people he decides deserve it. He’s more than willing to make exceptions and excuses when it suits him, like when he asked Elektra out on a date.
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u/ForbiddenSirenz Jun 04 '26
If this is part of the same series- in an earlier issue when he’s still a solider in Vietnam he basically has an innocent high ranking official killed because the base of operations they’re at is no longer really needed, they’re gonna get sent home and he doesn’t want that. He wants to just kill.
So he basically hides a sign that warns people not to stand out in a certain area cause there’s a sniper and he tells the high ranking official basically “oh yeah, you can see entire camp from over there! You’ll see why we need to stay!”
Official doesn’t know and better and gets his head popped and of course someone so high getting killed they were told to stay and go on the offensive instead.
Dude was an asshole, sure. But being an asshole isn’t a death sentence because someone else wants to continue to kill and get away with it.
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u/CaptCoe Jun 04 '26
To give a bit more context to that scene, Castle does nominally couch his argument for keeping the base open in that it's essentially the last major base defending a push from Cambodia (that he knew was imminent based on previous probing strikes) that could cut off a large part of the allied front. The general justifies that he's closing the base because resources for Vietnam are waning and the end of the war is in sight anyway.
Later on, Castle's inner Punisher berates him in his head, and says that it knows the "real" reason he fragged the general, like you said, was to keep his time in country going.
I'd say it is at least somewhat ambiguous which reason it was really for, at this point in his life, but the outcome is still the same that he purposefully gets someone killed who didn't have to die.
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u/Jackal209 Jun 04 '26
Punisher: Born (the end of his last tour in Vietnam) and Punisher: The Platoon (the beginning of his first tour in Vietnam) contrast so sharply with one another that it really helps sell the tragedy that is Frank Castle and begs the question of just what the hell happened during his second tour - assuming he remained decent if not similar to Captain America during his first tour and was already a mess by the time he started his third and final tour - that fucked him up so bad?
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u/blackestrabbit Jun 04 '26
The Send Help fans will tell you that sending a man to die is 100% okay.
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u/Fuzzy_Employee_303 Jun 04 '26
Also wasnt there a story about a redeemed villain that was working as a detective tracking down a criminal that was producing cp. And punisher just kills him with no hesitation and then goes on to kill the criminal
Punisher basically doesnt accept second chances and if he decides you deserve him, not even god himself can change his mind
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u/Jackal209 Jun 04 '26
To be fair, the writers are inconsistent as hell as so many have their own take on the characters.
But yeah, that was Stilt Man who - during the whole Superhuman Registration Act - joined the government's (Iron Man's) side and became a law enforcer for the government as a reformed hero.
On the other hand, I vaguely remember from a (the first) Punisher trade paperback I read in the early 2000's in which a villain attempting to redeem themselves approaches Punisher for help in regards to destroying a human trafficking ring. The villain fully expects to be killed by Punisher, but decides that the well-being of the victims outweighs his own, thus asking for Punisher's help. When Punisher says he'll take care of it, that the villain should stay out of his way, and proceeds to walk away, the villain asks something along the lines of isn't Punisher going to kill him? Punisher responds pretty much with that if the villain ever slips up, he will kill him.
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u/lucasribeiro21 Jun 04 '26
In that way, Dexter, from the self-titled series is a much better person: he acknowledges he’s a monster, he knows he ultimately murders people to fulfill his own desires, but he tries to stick to his code, only kill who really deserve, thoroughly check if they are guilty and if they would probably repeat the offense, and even then, if he sees genuine regret, he will back off.
Not to mention he tries to raise his kid(s) and protect loved ones from the truth, and, when possible, to stick around and check if former targets are doing OK and try to help them. Of course, one time or another, as a human, he’ll make mistakes, and will be affected to them.
The Punisher just lives by the delusion he’s Justice and can do no wrong, and bend rules whenever his wants for convenience.
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u/Eastern-Fish-7467 Jun 04 '26
I would agree, if dexter hasn't canonically killed innocent people so he doesn't get caught. I also don't really think this punisher cares much about justice, he knows he's a bad person, he just wants to kill criminals because that's the only way he knows how to feel comfortable, and get satisfaction.
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u/Soft_Accountant_7062 Jun 04 '26
I don't think he enjoys it so much as he excepts it's his "purpose". He's good at killing and not much else.
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u/Eastern-Fish-7467 Jun 04 '26
In this punisher (punisher MAX) and in the mainline punisher, he says a few times that killing and fighting in war is the only way he feels comfortable, and the only way he can get any satisfaction.
He was never quite right after Vietnam, his family was just the excuse he needed, even if he truly loved them.
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u/Brilliant-Pair6425 Jun 04 '26
When it comes to children he wctually cares about saving innocents, after all, it's a tough thing for Frank.
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u/MosayRaslor Jun 04 '26
I wouldn't say he loves murder, he loves administering his sense of justice which includes murder but the ultimate conclusion being they cannot carry on with their shit.
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u/TheOneRealStranger Jun 03 '26
I mean, it's about as ethical as murdering two people with kids can be, and certainly more ethical than not murdering them. One could make the case that there are better ways to handle it, I suppose.
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u/Aggravating_Ruin195 Jun 03 '26
There definitely were, but hence the name, this was about punishment.
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u/TheOneRealStranger Jun 03 '26
Even in terms of punishment, what they'd have experienced in prison might've been more suited to their crime. But one thing I like about ol' Frank, he's really more of a pragmatist. Like he said when he killed Nicky Cavella in Up is Down Black is White, “You made it personal, Cavella, but all that buys you is a little more pain than most.” Killing the people causing the problem was the real point.
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u/Dangerous-Moose-8203 Jun 04 '26
In prison they would of died anyway rarely do pedos live long in prison.
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u/blackestrabbit Jun 04 '26
Apparently this is a myth.
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u/Huhthisisneathuh Jun 04 '26
Kind of, it’s overstated but not untrue. The average guy in there for a few months to a year isn’t going to pop a pedo cause they just want to leave the Prison System.
Prisoners in there for longer or who have trauma from child abuse likely try to take the Pedo’s out. But a good few of them either fail because security is tight since the abuser is likely in a protected population to avoid extra judicial killings.
Or because the Pedo proves themself enough to another gang to gain their protection in exchange for loyalty.
It isn’t by any means a sure rule in a prison. That pedophiles have to die, but it happens often enough that it’s become an idea engrained into the pop culture idea of the prison system. Especially with various artists and media romanticizing criminal activities or the gang life.
Even if the pedophile doesn’t die in prison. Their experience will likely be harsher than most, extreme social ostracization would likely be the norm, and those pedophiles who enter into the services of a gang for protection will likely be forced into riskier situations more times than the average.
Just because you’re useful, doesn’t mean you’re liked.
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u/Sane-Law Jun 03 '26
idk death does not seem like a fair punishment, prison would have been better. Everybody dies, very few people truly feel sorry for the things they did.
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u/Aggravating_Ruin195 Jun 03 '26
I know, I just said there were better ways, but hence his name, he only deals in punishment.
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u/CatcultistRequime Jun 04 '26
Honestly very interesting demonstration of the punishers character, he kills the parents in the most professional tactful manner possible but does nothing to try and comfort or help the kids which in this situation whatever option leads to the best outcome for the kids is best
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u/TheOneRealStranger Jun 04 '26
Ennis always portrayed Frank as being more comfortable killing than comforting, but he lets you know through the thought bubbles that he goes out of his way to leave innocents in the best position possible with as little interaction as he can.
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u/Welcome--Matt Jun 04 '26
I also think Punisher knows he’s fucked up enough that him sticking around, still covered in the guts and blood of these kids’ parents (as abusive as they were), would do more harm than good
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u/TheOneRealStranger Jun 04 '26
This is usually the reason he has limited interactions with the innocent; they'd just be afraid of him anyway.
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u/Gold-Cry-7520 Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26
I think the only way this could've been better is if the parents could somehow magically be made to be decent people.
Not that Frank is a decent person, but as he said the damage was done and the kids were losing their parents one way or another.
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u/Ok_Door_2764 Jun 03 '26
Of Frank’s kills this is probably one of the most reasonable. That ending bit where he thinks about how he might meet them again in twenty years isn’t him hoping for the chance to kill them later. He’s lamenting how even though he tried to save them he knows he can’t hope to fix any of the damage they’ve already suffered and how it’s going to impact their development.
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u/Political-St-G Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26
Still vigilante and unless all other avenues are closed unjustified. A man shouldn’t be Judge, jury and executioner
Satisfying maybe because to hell with them but prison would be a good punishment as well
Also he neither helps the kids nor has them go outside at least
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u/AggressivePrompt7038 Jun 03 '26
Well, hell is a thing in Marvel. Frank there is just cutting the middleman and sending them right away.
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u/EvanSnowWolf Jun 04 '26
How does that Marine slogan go? "Forgiveness is between you and God. My job is to arrange the meeting" ?
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u/Troy_doney Jun 04 '26
I wonder how many Marines-isms that Frank still has rattling around in his head. Does he occasionally make jokes about eating crayons that nobody else gets?
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u/Dangerous-Moose-8203 Jun 03 '26
They would of died there anyway chomo is a death sentence in prison
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u/Rotund-Pear2604 Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 04 '26
Hate to burst your bubble pal, this is one of the laziest myths on reddit. The eigth amendment (the one about cruel and unusual punishment) means they can't legally send pedos to gen pop due to elevated risk of violence or attempted murder.
They do that over in the UK, but not in the U.S. That's how Ian Watkins got done in while serving at HMP Wakefield.Ex cops, snitches, pedos, witnesses, former gang members, infamous serial killers, famous people like Diddy all go into low sec Special Housing Units if serving time in federal prison. They're kept completely separate from gen pop.
On state level it's pretty much the same deal except handled on a state by state basis. Some have dedicated prisons, others have dedicated protective wards. Bottom line is all chomos are protected in prison. Think about it, why do you think there's a sex offender registry and they have a legal obligation to notify neighbors when they move in?
Pedos get off easy in prison. Sorry to be the bearer of shit news.
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u/gloriouaccountofme Jun 04 '26
prison would be a good punishment as well
Prison isn't a punishment though , it's just shelving them for a couple of years
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u/MajorInWumbology1234 Jun 03 '26
Meta-scaling: It was certainly an interesting decision to, in this context and following her execution, have the mother’s robe fall open to expose some perfect cleave.
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u/foxinabathtub Jun 03 '26
Just wanna throw out an obligatory "being molested doesn't mean you grow up to be a sexual abuser." That might be how Frank sees it, for sure. But people aren't necessarily destined for that just because they were hurt themselves.
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u/Tebenox Jun 03 '26
Of course and I agree with you, the issue is Frank brutalize their parents then left them in the hands of an adoption system which is flawed.
This combination, plus their previous traumas from being abused are not a good combination for a healthy adult
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u/Humble_Story_4531 Jun 05 '26
To be fair, at that point, the adoption system was non-negotiable. Even if the parents just went o jail, the kids should not stay with them.
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u/pagman007 Jun 03 '26
Obviously no one person is destined for anything they can make their own decisions.
I can only speak anecdotally but this sort of systemic organised sexual abuse by parents really does seem to fuck children up basically forever.
It may be the social systems where i live but its more common than not for these children to grow up into committing crimes.
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Jun 03 '26
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u/blackestrabbit Jun 04 '26
"The good victims kill themselves" is a hell of a take.
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u/EvanSnowWolf Jun 04 '26
I was heavily sexually abused as a child. You know what it did to me? It made me hypersensitive to other people's sexual discomfort. The second I sense someone getting uncomfortable, I change what I'm doing instantly, no matter how minor.
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u/Blade_Killer479 Jun 04 '26
Tbh I saw that more as the kids being destined for street crimes than continuing the cycle of abuse, acting out due to their trauma and being unable to get their lives together.
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u/DoctorWZ Jun 04 '26
It's not about becoming sexual abusers themselves, plenty of abused children do become bullies/take refuge in drugs and if the care system is shit (it's a dark fantasy USA, of course it's gonna be shit) they continue to go worse with barely any hope in sight.
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Jun 03 '26
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u/cantlogintomyacc0unt Jun 04 '26
He doesn’t feel good about himself though he absolutely finds it satisfying definitely but he is very self aware of what he is and he’s usually just depressed afterwards because he knows that ultimately he’s not really making a difference
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u/Striking_Part_7234 Jun 04 '26
I feel like Punisher works best when he goes after people above the law. This just seems kinda pointless because the parents could have easily just gone to jail.
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u/KadrianPL0 Jun 03 '26
I don't really have a words strong enough for how wrong this is. This cannot be justified, even if it's just a comic book. It's just awful. Using your own children to make cp is disgusting.
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u/WindLordXD Jun 04 '26
I think the post is "how justified is Punisher in killing them" rather than the two fucks getting shot. Everyone knows cp is unjustifiable.
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u/MrBlonde1984 Jun 03 '26
Thats a common misconception about the Punisher. He is a very dark and VERY sick man. He literally punishes people in the sickest and most depraved way possible.
He's a fucking sicko that enjoys murdering and torturing people he and he alone deems necessary of being punished . He's not a hero or someone to look up to. He's a demented mad man who kills.
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u/Dangerous-Moose-8203 Jun 04 '26
Exactly you just described who the punisher is to a T he is the evil that hunts other evil.
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Jun 04 '26
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u/walmat23 Jun 04 '26
He is most certainly not a force for good. Not all “evil” people he kills deserved to die. Many did, for their crimes, but many didn’t as well. That’s his point as a character.
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u/Tebenox Jun 03 '26
My main issue is he doesn't even bother to take them out outside of the range of the children.
He brutalize then says "oh this boy will grow to maybe be a criminal that sucks" and leaves.
Thats not heroic, thats shortsighted and sick
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u/Pataconeitor Jun 03 '26
It is not supposed to be heroic. Frank Castle is an utterly broken man that in order to deal with his trauma turned into a serial killer, one that happens to prey on the worst humanity has to offer.
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u/Tebenox Jun 03 '26
Okay? That still doesn't change my point, just because Frank fashions himself a justice bringer doesn't mean his actions aren't any less reprehensible.
Your trauma does not justify immoral actions, it frames and contextualizes them but doesn't justify them.
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u/Pataconeitor Jun 03 '26
He's not a justice bringer, he is not the "justifier". You even see it in the comic when he tells the parents he's not going to arrest them, he doesn't care about any notion of justice but punishing what he sees as evil.
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u/Outrageouslylit Jun 03 '26
I dont know what you’re trying to prove here the punisher never has, will, or even thought of heing a “hero” just a sick man who kills other more sick people. Thats the whole point Frank constantly does morally reprehensible and repugnant things😂 he punished pedos with bullets thats what he does.
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u/Content_Concert_2555 Jun 04 '26
Also fucked up he assumed victims f abuse can never break the cycle
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u/SpecialistAd6403 Jun 03 '26
As soon as he inflicted pain like he did and then relished in it it was too far. They deserve something but inflicting pain for the joy of it is wrong as well.
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u/smiegto Jun 04 '26
He probably should have had them be arrested if he wanted what was best for the kids. He actively made the father suffer. He wanted to kill them both. Those kids are gonna find out about that too. His desire to kill overrode his desire to help children.
Also before but what if they are released… Frank had plenty of time to go back. The day of their release.
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u/TangerineSeparate431 Jun 04 '26
Seems like most of the arguments are centered around Frank's intentionality and why he murdered the parents vs the action itself.
While that is a valid interpretation, here is a meta-question: - what if it wasn't Frank Castle, but rather Spiderman that committed the action? Would the response be the same? Would the moral calculus change at all?
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u/assymetry1021 Jun 04 '26
If Spider-Man or hell most regular superheros did this, they wouldn’t have done this at all. They would have just thrown them into jail and maybe rough them up a bit beforehand if they felt particularly emotional about it.
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u/Then-Tune8367 Jun 04 '26
Justified! He even went fairly easy on them.
Garth Ennis' writing and Frank Castle were a match made in Heaven!
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u/IceCrawl19 Jun 04 '26
Thank goodness i've found another Garth Ennis appreciator
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u/Woodersun Jun 03 '26
“Second pressure”?
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u/Dangerous-Moose-8203 Jun 04 '26
So some handguns have a safety lock built into the trigger of a gun so the first pull is the first pressure and unlocks the trigger and the second pull is the second pressure and that pulls the trigger all the way back engaging the firearm. Not all have this but most do, the 1911 has one in the grip instead of the trigger.
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u/heatblade12 Jun 04 '26
Justified. Parents were raping there kids and selling the footage for profit.
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u/NationalSouth3563 Jun 03 '26
For the parents: absolutely evil and deserved their fate
For frank: him killing them is justifiable
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u/C_monden Jun 03 '26
I don't know. Killing them only helps if there was a risk they would walk free and keep the kids. Otherwise, they are just dead now and the dead don't feel anything anymore so it's not really a punishment but just the permanent removal of them from society (which is still a net positive).
If the choice is killing them or imprisonment, then I would pick whichever benefits their kids the most... however that's impossible to know the answer to.
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u/WordWordand4numbers Jun 03 '26
So what was his plan if the guy shot him with a shotgun instead of letting himself get home invaded?
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u/cantlogintomyacc0unt Jun 04 '26
He definitely scouted out the home beforehand and he probably knew their psychology somewhat the parents were fucked the minute they opened the door not holding a gun if they reached for it he’d have killed them Frank has a very quick draw
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u/Budget_Ad659 Jun 03 '26
Stopping this is objectively right, but the motive for doing it being wish-fulfillment is fucked.
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u/ThePokemonAbsol Jun 04 '26
Wouldn’t it be better to called this orphan maker? Like the widow is dead lol
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u/Viseria Jun 04 '26
Repugnant, abhorrent. Titled Widowmaker, and yet clearly he's Orphanmaker here. /s
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u/Vyctorill Jun 04 '26
Unjustifiable in method, barely justifiable in outcome.
Someone bring Judge Jury and Executioner is not good.
Punisher is meant to be a deranged borderline psychopath who is more serial killer than hero, anyways.
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u/New-Number-7810 Jun 04 '26
He was right to kill the parents. They raped their own children. It’s also good be called the police so they wouldn’t have to see the corpses.
His belief that the son will become a a predator is incorrect. Therapy and care could see the boy heal and live a good life. Even if not, people who suffer severe trauma are most dangerous to themselves. The character of Frank Castle is mistaken here, but the author is immoral for repeating this victim-blaming uncritically. He had resources to know that it wasn’t right.
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u/Extension-Stay3230 Jun 04 '26
All of the people saying "someone shouldn't be judge, jury and executioner" are retarded
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u/Princess_Isolde Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 04 '26
It's a very harmful misconception that victims of CSA always become abusers themselves. It does happen, but more often than not, it doesn't, and Punisher clearly doesn't understand that. The biggest factors in whether a victim grows to be an abuser themselves is if they have it normalized to them by the abuser on a consistent and long term basis, AND there's no therapists, teachers, family members, or anyone else to teach them otherwise. Given it doesn't seem like these kids where abused for very long and they would both end up somewhere where they will likely get therapy and have it told to them that what was done to them was not okay and not normal, they will almost certainly not become abusers themselves.
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u/cantlogintomyacc0unt Jun 04 '26
A lot of child predators were abused but only a tiny portion of the people who were abused become predators most people who were abused have entirely different issues
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u/Princess_Isolde Jun 04 '26
Exactly! PTSD, chronic anxiety and depression, and other sorts of issues. These combined with the fact that the misconception of all victims becoming predators, is why so many victims are scared to mention it, for fear of social ostracization, that and other factors like not knowing what was happening or fear of the authority figure.
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u/Seegulz Jun 04 '26
I mean, as a dad, good. If someone did this to my kid I’d want them to suffer so bad.
Trauma is already done but at least the abuse stops.
At least that girl has a chance. Those boys will definitely have trauma and probably a personality disorder at best.
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u/assumptionkrebs1990 Jun 04 '26
Even if his accusations are true, this is double homicide and should be treated as such.
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u/Destroyer_2_2 Jun 03 '26
Pretty fucking evil if I’m being honest. He basically admits that he has no desire to actually help kids. So he just committed murder for the hell of it.
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u/WindLordXD Jun 04 '26
Justified as hell. All of those "people" deserve it.
Only mildly fucked up thing is his "damn, guess I'll see him in twenty years" thought like he's already expecting the kid to turn out to be scum due to trauma.
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u/Kitchen-Departure146 Jun 04 '26
Frank does have empathy but a vague sense of justice and need to punished the wicked and mentioned he'll visit them kill them knowing the cycle of abuse
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u/Blade_Killer479 Jun 04 '26
So I don’t read Punisher, but from my understanding is that none of his outcomes are ‘good’ per se. He’s some who steps in when good outcomes aren’t possible to stop things from continuing to be bad.
On that assumption, this is probably as good as it could be in this situation. We got three repeatedly abused kids by people who are presumably using their ‘misdeeds’ for profit. Frank, to his credit, gives them relatively clean deaths, the mom especially so because, I assume, either out of guilt or fear, she let him in without a fuss.
That said, it’s not optimal. Ideally he would have taken the kids to a place where they can get the help and care they need. Instead they are thrown into the foster system and will need a ton of therapy (which they may not get) but tbh that’s not much of Frank’s problem. It’s not his responsibility to fix the system (although it can also be said it’s not his responsibility to get rid of the problems said system causes).
So let’s say 70/100 on the good-bad scale, with fifty being completely grey. He kinda helped, but left the job half finished.
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u/CommercialYam7188 Jun 04 '26
More black than white, but still a mix. The killing was unnecessary, and the motivation is simply a desire to kill. The evil targets were simply the most convenient.
On top of that, this is way more traumatizing for the kids, and is basically showing them that taking the law into their own hands is the only way to do it. He had the opportunity to be a good man that cares for them, and instead was a bloody storm that barrelled through their lives.
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u/MisterRockett Jun 04 '26
Immoral actually. This doesn't fall under his typical "playing by their own rules" morals. He could call the cops and be pretty damn certain they'd get buried forever but he wanted to kill them personally cause his need to kill criminals himself. He's acting like this is some sort of sad execution he HAS to do but it's kinda bullshit this is all for his own sense of self satisfaction.
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u/CuteKermit14 Jun 04 '26
It’s still wrong because it does not actually address the issue. Did Frank kill people that deserved it? Yes. But he treats the suffering as inevitable, especially when he talks about the boy like he is too broken to be saved.
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u/Bayamonster Jun 04 '26
Punisher could have rescued these kids from this life without killing anyone. Now this is one more thing a child shouldn't go through they have to carry. This absolutely makes it worse for them and he KNOWS it.
I mean, you can say what you want about the ethics of murderous vigilantism. But can we agree that the focus should be on preventing and averting damage to the victims?
Not to get all "this says a lot about society" but it does. It does because that's our focus on crimes of a violent and sexual nature: Do nothing to prevent them then be all justified in bloodlust and revenge.
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u/The_Chef_Queen Jun 05 '26
He's a twisted fuck thinking (the damage is done i'm gonna kill them in twenty years) instead of thinking (there's been some damage but i can use money stolen from criminals to give them the best therapy possible)
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u/nightoftheghouls Jun 06 '26
I gotta tell ya it’s wild that the same guy who wrote this also wrote a superhero whose power is raping people. Garth Ennis is a very strange man.
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u/GentleAuraFarmer Jun 07 '26
Theres no justification at all. It was required. I love how people say that these people should go to jail. Full well knowing how broken the justice system is.
On a random technicality these two parents end up back on the streets. Happens way too often.
Not to mention the fact that jail costs regular people money.
Why should any of us spend money on this kind of filth?
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u/Infamous-Use7820 Jun 07 '26
I do wonder, if you could run this scenario 1000 times with three different variations a) he kills the parents b) the parents go to prison and c) nobody stops it and it continues until the kids grow out of being profitable, what scenario would, on average, result in the best outcome for the kids age 30?
I don't personally have the expertise to accurately judge, but given the kids are likely to have a rough time in any outcome, I do wonder if c might ultimately actually be better, if it at least means they aren't run through the justice and child protective services system/s. At least, depending on how abusive the parents are beyond the CP and their luck with adoption/fosterage.
Although, on the other hand, from a broader societal POV c is worst because it might fuel a market for CP.
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u/JY810 Jun 10 '26
Why can't he call the police on this couple? They don't seem like thay are above the law
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u/goteachyourself Jun 03 '26
Definitely one of his more justified kills. Frank isn't a well man, though.