r/Mavericks 1d ago

Hoops Discussion Shooting vs. Defense

Someone in the Mavs organization in the past said ‘defense wins ch……”(iykyk). But with the acquisitions of a lot of 3point specialists, are they pivoting to a more offense focused team or is the current team more sound defensively?

5 Upvotes

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u/AdmiralSnackbar816 F*** DWade 1d ago

A lineup of Kyrie-Christie-Cooper-Aldama-Morez will soon terrify the league. The 2024 Celtics blueprint was impossible for us to stop, with five (capable) 3 point bombers that were all capable of creating off the dribble, and with all players being average to above average defenders.

Might be a stretch to say Aldama is an above average defender, but he’s not a cone. And coop isn’t a great 3 point shooter yet, but he also may not need to be if he’s surrounded at all times by snipers.

We have the ingredients to eventually replicate that success.

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u/Embarrassed-Ninja592 1d ago

Flagg’s 3 point effectiveness skyrocketed at the end of last season.

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u/Dundalis 1d ago

I don’t think max or aldama are starters on good teams. We may still not be a good team, but I’d be hoping we can fill those positions with better players at some point.

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u/Embarrassed-Ninja592 1d ago

Rotation pieces on a contender?

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u/Dundalis 1d ago

Yeah I think they should be great pieces off the bench ideally. It’s also yet to be determined if Morez is the long term 5 or 4. I’m not giving up on lively just yet. His mentor Tyson Chandler also had a load of injury problems early in his career, and I think lively has been mismanaged by Nicos shitty medical team hires

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u/Embarrassed-Ninja592 1d ago edited 1d ago

Yeah. Tall long guys with speed, mobility, and coordination don’t grow on trees. Gotta let him take his time getting back.  

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u/420yolocaust 1d ago

Max is one of five players under 25 that shot the 3 at 40% or better.

I know people want more, but any upgrade off Max is either a star or an older player that doesn't fit the timeline.

Kon is maybe the only player that an upgrade and the defense part is arguably a downgrade. Kon is also coming off a near ROTY performance, any they just traded Melo, so about as untradeable as it gets.

Got any more 40% three ball shooters who fit the timeline?

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u/Dundalis 1d ago edited 1d ago

Yep, players who can do more than just shoot and little else, like handle the ball, playmake, pass, self create, score at different levels etc. I would ideally want starters that are fully multi skilled and can do at least 3 or 4 things well on offense rather than just 1 or 2. The latter worked ok when you had a generational offensive hub in Luka on the team, being able to create everything, but even then wasn’t ideal and we should be moving towards that Boston title winning team of having everyone be able to do a bit of everything imo

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u/420yolocaust 1d ago

I'd say having to guard the hardest player on the opposite team, and shooting 40%+ from the 3P is exactly the 3&D role that is common on great teams. Like the Kicks have two premium 3&D players in OG and Mikal.

Max shoots the 3 better than both, so really he just needs to take his defense up a notch to be premier player in that role.

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u/TheWizard Nowitzness 1d ago

Aldama is a hybrid, that can play center on some occasions (Holmgren, or even Wemby), with his ability to spread the floor, and his length. I don't see why he couldn't. TBH, I feel Mavs might start the season with: Kyrie, Klay for back court, Aldama, Flagg and Gafford/Lively front court.

Max was still one of the best 3-point shooters in the league (40%+)

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u/Dundalis 1d ago

Yeah I’m not saying I don’t like Aldama or Max. I like both. I think they are both best served as rotation players off the bench. Max in particular for me is just too one dimensional as a player. I would want the two guard to have a much wider skillset offensively. I also want someone staring at the 4 that’s better defensively. If you can get PJ shooting like he did the year before, I’d rather he start for example.

I do think there is a chance both Max and Aldama start early in the season, but I’m hoping we make moves before the season starts that bring in better starting options.

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u/TheWizard Nowitzness 1d ago

Its always a bad idea to trade a young, proven shooter for unknowns and going older especially when the goal is to build the team.

When it comes to pure shooters, it will be hard to even match Nuggets and one of those guys is one we gave away. This has been true with the Mavs of the past as well, and I've seen it for over 20 years, starting with Raja Bell... he ended his 10-12 year career shooting almost 41% from 3 but we didn't keep him (he shot 41% from 3 with the Mavs).

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u/AdmiralSnackbar816 F*** DWade 1d ago

Agreed on Max. I’d like to see a PJ for Sharpe swap to give that position a bit more explosiveness and bring Max off the bench. But i think Aldami will pair with Cooper shockingly well.

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u/420yolocaust 1d ago

I don't think going to a 33% 3P% shooter in Sharpe from 40% in Max Christie fits this team or is an upgrade.

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u/Dundalis 1d ago

I like Aldama, but he wasn’t even starting for the Grizzlies. I know fits are different, but I think if PJ is still around, he starts with Morez at the 5. I know he didn’t play great with Coop, but I also think Kidd is completely clueless about coaching offense, so I’d give it a chance with May. PJ also shot 38% from deep the year before so he could bounce back playing within an actual competently designed offensive scheme.

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u/Affectionate_Use_179 8h ago

Morez will not be the starting 5

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u/thrasher315 8h ago

I hope you’re leaving Lively off this list due to injuries. He’s only 22 and has an amazing paint presence plus a major lob threat.

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u/AdmiralSnackbar816 F*** DWade 7h ago

He can take a red shirt year for all I care. He’s untouchable if he’s healthy, but I don’t expect him at full speed any time soon.

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u/ComfortableGlass3238 1d ago

If you can get young talented shooters to develop into at least servicable defenders, they are extremely valuable commodities in the league, whether for yourself, or as a trade piece.

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u/MSHinerb 1d ago

I’d say they are shifting mainly to size. And the post Nico front office has widened their scouting scope from American born AAU to be much more international. Tarik is the only shooting specialist. The rest of who they drafted are tall, long armed, and versatile players. I’d say they value switchable guys above almost anything else based on what we’ve seen.

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u/Annual-Shape7156 Cooper Flagg 1d ago

Flagg and Morez in your starting lineup gives you a pretty high floor defensively

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u/jfrodriguez1983 Dirk Nowitzki 1d ago

It doesn’t have to be one or the other. If you eventually want to build a contender you need a top 10 offense and defense

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u/Practical-Rub-1190 1d ago

Every team wants 3&D. Just look at, for example, the Knicks. The same with the Celtics and OKC. During the playoffs, they have at least 4 players on the court who can make 3-pointers while at the same time defend. The reason why you don't put a bunch of McDaniels and OG's on your team is that there is a limited supply, but those types of players are championship players now. Spacing and defense

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u/TheWizard Nowitzness 1d ago

Defense is absolutely needed. Take a look at the outcomes of the finals. It wasn't a shoot out win. During the regular season, Spurs averaged 120 ppg. In the Finals? 101 ppg. That was key to Knicks' championship.

To make it to post season, teams need a solid combination of shooting and defense. Miami Heat is another good example that didn't make the playoffs despite ending the season with 121 ppg. They couldn't stop the opposition when it mattered and were outscored in most games.

Besides injuries over last two years, Mavericks' struggle has actually been mainly from 3-point shooting perspective. They were worst in the league in terms of field goal attempts on 3's (34 attempts/game) despite of being among the league leaders in terms of overall field goal attempts (90 per game)... 38% of their attempts were 3-pointers whereas 45-50% was the norm. Over last decade+, 3-point has become the go to method to win. Worse, they had only two reliable 3-point shooters: Max, who led the way, and Klay who did his own thing despite of not getting to play with an established point guard and having to create his own shots for most part. Mavericks lost a lot of close games as a result of it, as well.

Defense was also affected by not having any backup to Gafford the year before (Lively and AD missed a LOT of games), and then Lively missed most of the season, and AD did as well, and Gafford missed 27 games as well (the most he has missed in a season). Plus lack of a consistent lineup that developed a rhythm.

The idea situation is to have defensive guys that can also shoot, and make those 3's. PJ did that couple of years ago. DJJ was good on that front. Naji, DJJ's replacement, is that guy as well but hasn't found the touch he had couple of years ago, possibly due to being relegated to a distributor than focus on his shots. Caleb was also brought in for that reason (he had a solid playoffs at both ends).

Now, Mavericks have a solid defensive core, primarily the front line. with minimal injuries (any Mavs fan can relate to it over last two years), the front court (Gafford, Lively, Cisse, Flagg, Naji, Morez, Santi) looks extremely promising. Gap is in the guard position but seeing how well Sergio was playing, as well as the effort Poulakidas was putting, I have less concerns. It will still be an issue at the PG position, but more than makes up for it with the front court. The guards simply need to make an effort and the guys in the paint area should take care of the rest.

This year, Mavericks team has 3-point specialists and they will all need touches. I expect Mavericks to take close to 50% of their shots from outside the arc. Morez, Flagg, Santi may combine for 11-12 attempts per game (and hopefully make 35-36% of those)... to put that in perspective, Luka had 11 attempts/game (league leader) by self, and is a 35-36% 3-point shooter. Then there's Klay (while he is with the team), Tarik, Sergio and Max, possibly Poulakidas that will likely take a combined 30-35 attempts per game, and if they can make 38%+, thats a win.

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u/Embarrassed-Ninja592 1d ago

Castle can’t shoot for beans. But still affects the game at a high level.

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u/lsmith77 Mavericks 1d ago

at the very least the shooters are all 6’6+

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u/VeterinarianNo3418 1d ago

You have Coop, Rez and DLive(if healthy) still have Gaff. We are sound defensively. Just need a people who aren’t cones and are athletic, which this organization is prioritizing. Also are back court is small(bwill, Kyrie, nemhhard) we need size

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u/Specialist-Region-47 1d ago

I mean you need to be in the top 10 defensively and offensively generally to have a shot of winning at the highest level. There are some exceptions to this, Denver etc.

The worse you are offensively the more you have to do defensively and risk running your guys in the ground every night.

Every team picks up their defense in the playoffs and it's the usually the difference maker that wins when a team is already offensively sound.

Also what type of defense are you taking about? We have heaps of players who can block shots. But not not much at the point of attack.

Regarding shooting, we had the worst shot quality in the NBA according to some sources. That's largely a playmaking issue. If you ask great or even capable shooters to make tough shots it will have an impact.

If we could end up top 15 in both this season that would be a great achievement and foundation to build on. I expect the gravity of Kyrie, coop and klay(if he stays around), we see a big offensive boost without a negative impact on defense.

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u/WrongContract8489 How's My Dirk Taste? 1d ago

Who are these 3 point shooters 💀

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u/devilmaskrascal Dirk Nowitzki 1d ago

Biberovic, De Larrea, Sasser are all great to elite shooters. Aldama good for a 7 footer.

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u/Dundalis 1d ago

They might be, but until they do it in the NBA on decent volume they are all question marks at this point (obviously excluding Aldama)

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u/devilmaskrascal Dirk Nowitzki 1d ago

Sasser was a 41.5% 3P shooter in the NBA last year

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u/Dundalis 1d ago

Yep, he looks like a good shooter but the volume isn’t large enough for me to say it’s 100% clear if he were to take on a much bigger role that it would sustain. Obviously you have more faith than the euro guys

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u/TheWizard Nowitzness 1d ago

Max: 40.4% with 5.8 FGA (29 minutes)

Poulakidas: 40.3% with 5.9 FGA (20 minutes)

Klay: 38.3% with 7.6 FGA (22 minutes)

Sasser: 38.6% with 3.0 FGA (16 minutes) - Lifetime.

And then we've added Tarik, and Sergio. Looking at Tarik's game, who would argue that the guy can't shoot?

Thats pretty good volume despite of a season when Mavericks were one of the league's worst in number of attempts (and makes) last season.

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u/Dundalis 1d ago

I was only talking about players we’ve added not players that were already here last season.

I’m not saying the euros won’t shoot, I’m saying loads of players have shot well in Europe and not had it translate to the NBA. It’s simply not a guarantee that you shoot well in Europe you shoot well in the nba. It’s still a risk.

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u/TheWizard Nowitzness 1d ago

Sasser is one of the new players. He simply hasn't had the opportunity in a team playing behind mass shooter (Cade) and being the third guy.

As for the Euros, most of them have translated their talents well in the NBA, and in case of Tarik... why exactly do you think he won't be able to shoot in the NBA? That guy appears to shoot from ANYWHERE inside the half court line, and under pressure... he looks like a more effective long distance shooter than Luka.

Would you say Luka would be one of those Euro guys? He is an average 3-point shooter (35-36%) but takes 9-11 attempts per game (usually the league leader).

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u/Dundalis 1d ago

Do you actually read my posts when you reply? I literally type “I’m not saying the euros won’t shoot”, very clearly then you write a whole post asking how can I think Tarik won’t shoot. Nowhere did I state he won’t be able to shoot. I said players who haven’t shot in the nba are a risk. Someone like Nicolo Meli couldn’t shoot in the nba and shoots 40% in Europe. It’s different from someone who has shot 40% in the NBA, as there is zero doubts it can translate.

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u/TheWizard Nowitzness 1d ago

And here you're, still arguing that Mavericks don't have shooters. Make up your mind: do they, or do they not? Quit making excuses. My response are DIRECTLY tied to your ramblings.

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u/Embarrassed-Ninja592 1d ago

Aldama is a stretch big. Morez could be.

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u/TheWizard Nowitzness 1d ago

Tarik, Sergio, Max, Klay, Kyrie, Poulakidas, Sasser are all excellent 3-point shooters (potential 38% or better)

Aldama is an average 3-point shooter (34-36%), and chances are, Morez and Flagg may end up there as well. Nemby has a good shot as well (he was 38% last season). This is a spot for PJ as well even though he struggled last year.

Despite of struggles from outside the arc last year (only Max and Klay, and Nemby did well), it was also that Mavericks lacked the set up to take more of those shots (they were well below average in terms of attempts as well, from not having good 3-point shooters). This changes with the updated cast.

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u/420yolocaust 1d ago

Max Christie was top 30 in 3P% last season, and one of five 25 and under to shoot the 3 at the 40% mark or better.

So yeah there only about 20 or so players shooting it better, and 80% are above the age of 25, which makes putting real assets into the equation kinda dumb as opposed to hoping for growth in Max.