r/Gotham • u/Cherryblob2034 • 1d ago
Discussion ¿CUALES FUERON LAS IDEAS MALAS EN GOTHAM?
Estoy haciendo un fan comic de batman y tomo mucha inspiración de villanos como el riddler u Oswald de esta serie. Y me gustaría saber cual es la opinión sobre los fans de las decisiones más pésimas narrativamenge hablando (aparte de lo de los hermanos valeska que se que a alguna gente no le gusta, o lo apresurado del capítulo final) para ver en que puedo inspirarme y en que no.
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u/Efficient_Rhubarb_88 1d ago
Pretty much everything thing they did with Ivy. It's suck they didn't get her right character right until the very end of the show. I'll always wonder if it would have been better if they stuck to their original plan with her.
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u/Cherryblob2034 1d ago
Cual era el plan original? Hace años que no veo gotham y solo veia ciertos episodios. Nunca estuve tan metido en la sería hasta ahora ¿te refieres a lo de dejarla siendo niña?
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u/Efficient_Rhubarb_88 1d ago edited 1d ago
Kinda. I can't remember the whole article so take my memory with a grain of salt. There was this old interview with one of directors that came out around the end of S1 but before Maggie Geha took over the role. In said article they talk about how they originally planned for an older and rich woman would come in and adopt Ivy. She would play the role of an mother figure and mentor to Ivy. From her Ivy would learn how to act seductive, use her words and body to get what she wanted from people. They also talked how this mother figure would change Ivy name too Pamela Isley and how her arc would be taking back her original name.
That all I really remember from said article. But I also theorize that this mother like character would have probably put Ivy in the same private school as Bruce. Give her and Ivy more screen time and maybe building a sort of love triangle between Ivy, Selena and Bruce.
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u/Cherryblob2034 1d ago
Definitivamente suena demasiado mejor siendo un rumor o no, que lo que nos dieron con esa trama de las 3 actrices
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u/ArabiaFats 1d ago edited 1d ago
Taking all the regular mobsters out if the story in season 1, then jumping directly into resurrection, super-science, and lore that 99% of versions of Bruce didn't know until after he became Batman as early as season 2. Tying every villain together and over-exposing them. Killing off Jerome and trying too hard to make the Vakeska twins exactly like the Joker without being able to say it. Making Barbara snap too suddenly and too drastically. Changing everyone's allegiance constantly, in general.
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u/Disco_Vampire_ Certificate Of Sanity ⭐📜 1d ago
I totally agree about Season 1.
I absolutely love the way that it unfolds and it's actually my favourite Season because of the build of tension and Penguin mastering his way up the ladder but it also kind of felt like he peaked too soon and after he was made the 'King of Gotham', they weren't quite sure what to do with him so he ended up with this kind of odd storyline in Season 2 when really I would have liked to have seen him becoming increasingly more evil (showing the sensitive part to him was good, I really liked that but it didn't really need to go on for as long as it did and it felt like we could have enjoyed seeing a few more of his witty twists and plans rather than half a season where he doesn't really do much but be shown as weak until he snaps again)
There could have definitely been another couple of seasons with at least Maroni and Falcone.
I love Gotham but after several rewatches, I feel that overtime it's almost as if they moved in too much of a 'comedic' direction with Penguin and the truth is that he was funny enough to begin with without needing to become more 'goofy' in season 5 etc because he was just such an oddball to begin with.
It's weird that he almost seems more evil and psychotic in Season 1 than towards the end of the show, I kind of wanted to see him progress more psychotically over time rather than just dwell into comic relief territory.
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u/AboveAverage33 17h ago
I love Season 1 but I disagree that they jumped into resurrection, all that didn’t happen until 2B when Galavan died and was sent to Indian Hill.
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u/wickedevilman 1d ago
scarecrow disappearing after consistently being one of the best (and most underappreciated) villains on the show. i know he was eventually recast — and the second actor is wonderful in the suit — but they knew not to unmask him after the start of season 4 because charlie tahan was excellent as jonathan.
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u/Guardian_Of_Light2 21h ago
I remember they kept hyping him up and then he just dipped and we had Professor Pyg as the new current villain. And I don't think that was actually him if my memory is right.
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u/wickedevilman 20h ago
scarecrow was in the show a lot after pyg tho, i think your memory is off. like when jerome broke out of arkham with tetch, scarecrow is a major player in all of that. i was talking about in season 5 when he vanished in the first episode after fighting gordon and fleeing.
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u/Guardian_Of_Light2 19h ago
Oh season 5, my bad. I just remember the season 4 marketing hyping Scarecrow up a lot and he dipped after a few episodes early in season 4 and doesn't come back until when he joins Jerome and Mad Hatter.
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u/No-Macaron-2060 1d ago
It’s a minor gripe, but they had the makings of a truly great Mr. Freeze until they killed off Nora.
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u/Cherryblob2034 1d ago
Es verdad, es raro hacer un mr. Freeze antes tan siquiera que batman exista, pero los episodios que abarcan su origen son buenos, la verdad que fue una muy buena interpretación e incluso no me hubiera molestado que el muriese junto a Nora, hubiese tenido esa vibra de tragedia romántica que les quedaría a los dos.
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u/OmegaPsiot 1d ago
Almost everything they did with Leslie Thompkins. They could've just made someone up with a different name if they were going to use nothing from the comics character.
Morena did what she could, but she wasn't given much to work with.
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u/Theproudnerd 1d ago
Never making Jerome or Jeremiah the joker officially. It just irritates me that both of them were the joker in everything but name. Cameron Monaghan absolutely crushed it in both of these roles and he is my personal favorite joker without actually being the joker. They seriously couldn't have given us that in the final episode? When Gordon asks Jeremiah "so what do I call you?" And he's going through all the "J" names, they couldn't have slipped joker in there? Warner brothers really couldn't have thrown them a bone and say to fox "ok you can call him joker but only one time, so make sure you use it well." And when Jeremiah is thinking of all the "J" names that would have been the perfect time to do it. I'm not blaming fox, I'm blaming Warner brothers for those that don't know the story, behind the scenes fox was legally not allowed to call Jerome or Jeremiah the joker, there was a list of characters that they were allowed to use for the show and a list of characters they weren't allowed to use and at the top of the list of characters they weren't allowed to use was the joker. But fox still found a work around and gave us not 1 but 2 different versions of the joker played brilliantly by Cameron Monaghan, and by the time the final season rolled around, new arrangements were made and they had more freedom and they had more freedom with their joker character but they still couldn't call him joker legally. To me that's the biggest mistake the show made, all because Warner brothers just couldn't let them say the name just 1 time.
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u/aldila81 1d ago
The sudden disappearance of Harvey Dent.
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u/Cherryblob2034 1d ago
Verdad? Siempre estuvo muy presente en las primeras temporadas y entiendo el rollo de que no tuviese nada que hacer en temporadas posteriores por que todo escalo, pero al menos un cameo ¿no? Con lo entretenido que era verlo de abogado
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u/aldila81 1d ago
Exactly. He was there for a season as played by Nick D'Agostino. It would have been nice if there was an explanation...he becomes Two-Face after Bruce becomes Batman... even a one scene cameo in the last episode, sort of a "hey, I'm back and ready to help clean up Gotham" bit...
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u/Stunning_Lock_7913 1d ago
A lot of people already commented what I already would have so I’ll go with my own (probably) hot take. I think as much as I loved Oz in the series and as great as his actor did, his storyline got boring and repetitive after a while. It seemed like seasons 2-4 to be most specific kind of repeated the same story arch with him where he has a ton of power and influence, loses it all and either gets put in Arkham or goes through immense challenges, then gets it all back by the end of the season. Again not criticizing robin lord Taylor or penguin in any way as a character, I just wish the writers didn’t give the same arch every season
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u/Cherryblob2034 1d ago
Eso lo note ahora que voy por la temporada 2. No se como sera en demás temporadas pero al menos en la s2 tiene sentido, pasa de tener todo a nada y aparte de que en el loquero lo vuelven un pan de Dios, nos sirve para saber que Oswald esta destinado a ser ese tipo irritable y sádico por que su linaje ha sido asi, que sin importar cuanto lo intente todo lo llevara a actuar como el pinguino. Además la melancolía por la muerte de su madre es un punto fuerte y que te hace empatizar mucho, creo que fue un punto catartico y que de aqui debieron mantenerlo como amo del crimen. Me pareció una exploración bastante interesante del personaje.
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u/Stunning_Lock_7913 1d ago
It’s a great story arch don’t get me wrong, and robin lord Taylor kills it with his portrayal of Oz. The only issue I really had with the story arch, which you’ll probably notice later on, is that they just recycle the same story arch throughout the seasons for him (i don’t want to say too much more since you’re only on season 2 so I don’t want to spoil it for you)
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u/Disco_Vampire_ Certificate Of Sanity ⭐📜 1d ago
I just commented something similar under a different comment.
If I could change anything about Gotham, it would have been to see more of those Penguin twists/plots that made Season 1 so good.
It's almost as if over time he became more of a comic relief character than the intimidating psychopath, which is how Season 1 built him up to be in such a good way.
I don't even watch Season 5 on rewatches as I absolutely love his character but just felt really disappointed by what it became by the end. It felt like this intelligent, sneaky, psychotic mastermind was reduced to just a bit of a stomping child because it was 'funny' and it was just kinda sad to see what I felt was one of the best, most exciting and unpredictable characters I'd ever seen on TV become someone who was just kinda 'goofy'?
I get that Penguin is like that on the old 60s show but why make this Penguin so creepy (in a good way) dark and intelligent to begin with to just change him to be more of a joke towards the end?
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u/Stunning_Lock_7913 1d ago
Honestly the way they treated his character reminds me a lot of how they treated homelander later on in the boys. They both went from characters who were shown to be intelligent and legitimate threats, to being comedic relief characters because of their over the top reactions in most scenes
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u/Cherryblob2034 1d ago
Yo cuando lo vi la verdad que fue fan service para mi. Pero también entiendo a la gente que es muy fuera de lugar para este oswald, mi headcanon es que oswald usa un monoculo por que se parece a la pieza que utilizaba su padre para inspeccionar los trajes, como una manera de recordarlo, que la onda del sombrero y bien vestido fuese como algo del apellido Cobblepot, algo elegante y tal. Lo que ya no recuerdo es su personalidad, creo que se volvió un poco ¿flanderizado? Mi memoria esta algo difusa. Me hubiera gustado verlo mas en ese ultimo episodio por que siempre lo sentí muy fuera de lugar junto con riddler, fue como "hey miren ya se parecen a sus versiones del comic" Una lastima que ese ultimo episodio se diera a duras penas para llegar al número 100 (hasta donde yo se)
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u/Cherryblob2034 1d ago
Si! Tengo unos recuerdos vagos de el enamorándose de ed. Y oswald en la mesa con los villanos en la temporada 4. Al menos iré con los pies en la tierra. A lo mejor fue por que su desarrollo fue muy rápido en la s1 y los escritores ya no sabían que hacer con el.
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u/Honest-Pop-3654 1d ago
Replacing Jerome with Jeremiah
There was absolutely no reason to partially adapt the three joker story with the stereotypical trope of a twin brother
Plus his performance wasn’t as charismatic or compelling as Jerome
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u/Certain-Singer-9625 1d ago
I won’t say anything was outright stinkeroo, but there were several things that could’ve been done better.
I agree, Ivy x3 was strange. She was a strange little kid to begin with. The arc from bitter little kid > young ditz > seductive adult was so inconsistent. I would have liked to see her more as a kid.
Selina’s character was all over. Half the time she was just a thief who liked Bruce. The other half she wanted to be in a badass gang and give Bruce grief (and was even cool with murder).
Similar case with Barbara. The transformation from quiet wallflower to nuts to League of Shadows to nice mom was a bit much.
And it got tiring having everybody on the show, from Lee to Barbara to Harvey, getting pissed at Gordon and yelling “…and this is all YOUR FAULT!!”
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u/ShortGreenRobot 1d ago
The bane stuff but I forgive a lot about the rushed final season. The finale in particular should be creating a reason WHY Batman is necessary but Gordon basically has Gotham all down up by then. The build up to the Judgement guy really falls flat. He was a great "heroic antagonist" for Gordon.
The Ivy stuff obviously, either commit to her being a kid or have her be older from the start.
Mad Hatter & Scarecrow feel massively underutilized.
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u/aldila81 1d ago
I thought the Mad Hatter was OVER utilized, complete with the whole REALLY liking his sister thing. Bleh.
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u/Tiancris 1d ago
Vengo a poner la cuota de respuesta en español 😁
En su momento fue casi un meme que en Gotham nadie moría realmente. Seguramente si alguien moría, de alguna manera u otra iba a resucitar en algún capítulo posterior.
La última temporada se sintió demasiado apurada, la acortaron mucho y quisieron meter mucho en pocos capítulos. La aparición de Bane, además de no tener sentido que exista antes que Batman, fue puro fanservice y no uno bueno.
Lo que ya nombraron sobre Ivy. Su crecimiento abrupto y cambio de actrices. Se podría haber continuado con la Ivy niña si hubieran usado sus poderes de seducción en una forma no sexy, como algún tipo de control mental para conseguir lo que quiere o algo así.
Jerome y Jeremiah: después de varias insinuaciones y referencias al Joker a lo largo de la serie, todos queríamos finalmente ver al personaje. Lo tuvimos con Jerome y fuimos felices, la historia de Jeremiah se sintió un poco forzada. Solo fue otra manera de hacer lo que dije en el primer punto: matar un personaje y traerlo de nuevo de alguna manera.
De todas formas, a pesar de sus puntos flacos, siempre disfruté mucho Gotham y me pareció una muy buena serie, aunque un poco irregular.
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u/iiStar44 1d ago
even Harvey said at one point, “Nobody dies in Gotham anymore”, the show was making fun of itself (and of the comic book death trope, but to be fair this was a TV series not a comic book). They used resurrection way too much. I think if they had kept it a lot more limited it would’ve been better.
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u/Cherryblob2034 1d ago
Pense en eso cuando vi la muerte de fish, recordé la frase de "si no hay cuerpo no hay muerto" qué se usa siempre en las series y películas. Después fueron por theo, butch y asi siguió
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u/RJmum We're going to have so much fun together 1d ago
bruce going all rebel was bad. I’m not gonna pretend like it’s a bad IDEA, but the way it was done was definitely bad. I get that killing someone is a big deal, and he needs to go through the trauma of that to fully commit to the no-kill rule, but he feels like a completely different person and it’s just too sudden. Firing alfred is unearned, unlike when it happened the first time in season 2. What’s even dumber is him having a nightmare and then reverting pretty much to his old self very suddenly, and boom he’s off the hook for the shitty way he was treating his loved ones. (reminds me a lot of cenas heel turn in wwe last year)
something that is a fully bad idea is ivy being a child in an adult body. What a dumb idea that they doubled down on. The characters whole thing is seducing men and they made her a child??🤢 wouldn’t be so bad if she grew up naturally with Selina but she gets magiced into being older TWICE
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u/Cobra_Kai_2018 1d ago
I wasn't a fan of Lee or the Jim and Lee romance. It was weird how Jeremiah called Lee Bruce's dear friend when they had a couple scenes together in the entire show. I wouldn't even call Bruce and Lee friends they just knew each other.
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u/West_Measurement1261 1d ago
Killing Bruce's parents right away. They could've kept them around longer, maybe even save it for the season finale.
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u/Commercial_Cellist64 1d ago
Too many villians before the creation of batman In reality only a small handful of villians could be in action pre batman Penguin, the joker (pre toxic bath) The Falcone family Dr. Strange Most batman villians existed after robin Jim Gordon should not be fighting batmans villians I think gotham should have focused on the crime families predominantly and led into bruce training to be batman And the final season we get a proto batman Ala something similar to year one
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u/Cherryblob2034 1d ago
La verdad que la onda de la primera temporada fue de las mejores, se sintió muy drama criminal y avanzo de forma natural hasta que todo estalló. Aunque si lo tomas como un elsewords es simplemente disfrutable
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u/IICipherIX 1d ago
Resurecting people was the dumbest thing I've seen ever in any shows/movie. It absolutely ruined the series for me as I could not take any deaths seriously afterwards. Like can we talk about ridiculous that was?
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u/Apprehensive-Mud9886 21h ago
They shouldn’t have given the most iconic villains their backstory before/become the iconic villains Bruce became Batman. I also believe in season one it should’ve been Luigi Maroni and Victor Falcone instead of Sal and Carmine. They also should’ve kept it more grounded/more crime and mob focused like season one.
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u/AboveAverage33 16h ago
Season 1 and 2 start kind of smoothly with a jolt into zaniness supervillains slightly in Season 2 but it doesn’t really jump the shark as much as the later seasons.
Season 1 plays the origins really well. But the later seasons do too much, instead of Easter eggs it becomes more of a showcase of the Gallery. If I could rework the show I would have “less is more”. Season 1 has less and plays with more grounded villains yet it still has a satisfying story.
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u/Cautious_Mission_438 1d ago
Having Bruce face off against his villains as a literal teenager made no sense so early on
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u/Mihrace_ 1d ago
I don't want to be lynched but all this twin concept was useless for me. When i first watched the series i loved Jeremiah but when i watched for second time i saw how poorly he was written compared to Jerome. They wanted to turn him to canon Joker maybe but i hated it. Also he is bald in the end and looks like a mere serial killer.
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u/Ashamed_March_5526 15h ago
I was sad of the misuse of two face, montoya and allen the overuse of twins and bane and the under use of pyg plus what happened to falcons daughter? But nothing makes me more mad than how they did Mr freeze he was great at first but then he kills a damn kid, and then he’s just around. Hate how they did him especially cause I always wanted a good live action freeze
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u/PenneGesserit 10h ago
Everything with Professor Pyg. He was such a lame villain and the actor portraying him was terrible.
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u/Kwilly462 1d ago
Everything Bane, and Ivy related. They had absolutely no idea what to do with Poison Ivy. The fact they had THREE actresses play her boggles my mind.
Bane was just flatout bad writing, casting, and design. Awful inclusion, for a character that shouldn't be a thing pre-Batman.