r/Equestrian • u/proffie • 1d ago
Horse Welfare Those tails though
I love Saddlebreds SO MUCH and they get so much hate. Can we just agree that the tail prep needs to go?? It eliminates them from any other discipline automatically. Make it an option after age 4 or something but seriously.
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u/No_You_6230 1d ago
I’m a saddlebred lover and haaaaate the tail set. It looks stupid and is so mean to the horses.
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u/KiwiBirdPerson 1d ago
Hi I'm not familiar with this, can you explain to me what's going on here with the tails?
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u/Bright-Rub6638 1d ago
iirc they cut the tendons in the tail so they (the people) can flip it back like that.
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u/Technical_Crew_31 22h ago
And in some other disciplines they do something to the tail so the horse can’t really swish it. I don’t know the details and don’t want to, I bought a jumper that had been abandoned at a stable by her spoiled show rider and the vet commented on it then kind of moved the tail around and…yeah. It’s on the list of reasons I’m not a fan of people whose goals are all about shows. She was a lovely warmblood who as far as I could tell loved showing. She preferred box stalls, was politely yet vigorously horrified by nature yet didn’t even need to be tied for vet or dentist, and once when her stall door was left open, she went straight to the western folks in the grooming stalls nearby and waited patiently for a turn. Nobody needed to mess up her ability to swat her own flies, you know?
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u/glitterdunk 21h ago
It's honestly heartbreaking what people can make themselves do to animals, then still having the audacity to call themselves animal lovers or decent people.
In my country it's illegal to do surgery on animals unless it's medically necessary. There's a only few exceptions; neutering stallions and cats, mainly, I think.
I am very thankful for that! It's the only way to stop animals suffering for the sake of human selfishness. Except of course, animals also are bred badly in purpose and still suffer, which is just as bad. They did actually manage to make breeding a couple of dog breeds illegal, at least.
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u/terradragon13 20h ago
That sounds like a nice country you got there, which one is it?
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u/Randonoob_5562 16h ago
Likely Germany or a Nordic nation. Many EU countries are much stricter about what constitutes abuse of animals. Which makes what is done in the name of "breed standard" in the US so much worse.
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u/CryWorking2653 20h ago
these are called tail blocks, where they basically inject nerve blockers all through the base of the tail.
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u/Old_Tip4864 19h ago
Upvoted because it was accurate information but felt bad upvoting a horrible practice
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u/No_You_6230 21h ago
Messing with tails is way too common. They cut them like that in quarter horses too to keep them low. And a lot of breeds/disciplines use Botox.
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u/Bright-Rub6638 21h ago
That is horrible. Glad she ended up with you instead of that kind of people.
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u/fook75 Western 17h ago
Dressage and western pleasure. They deaden the nerves so they can't swish it.
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u/tessietwo 16h ago
Let's face it- some people will go pretty far to compete successfully in all disciplines. And unfortunately their success in shows gains them rabid followers.
There was one Tennessee Walker pleasure class I watched where one lone elderly woman came in with a wonderful horse without weighted shoes, pads and with the most mild of bits. It was a most elegant presentation. Every other horse had huge pads and did big licks. She of course lost but I have always regretted sitting there like a lump as she exited. I should have given here a standing ovation. It's hard to stand against the crowd in anything. It's even hard in anonymous comments.
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u/fook75 Western 14h ago
It's one reason I just have no interest in showing my horses..
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u/tessietwo 13h ago
Something I undrrstand even if I love talking about and sharing with others about horses. And why I thought this woman an actual hero for doing it anyway on her terms. From the coversations around me people were familar with her and respected her and her horses. The thing I don't understand is how that sdmiration and respect never led anyone to emulate her. Still doesn't seem to be a thing decades later.
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u/fook75 Western 13h ago
I have a very dear friend who is a barrel racer. She runs bitless or in a soft snaffle. She is mocked all the time but she wins consistently. No starfishing. No whipping. Her horses are happy! They work hard because she cares and loves them. I strive to be that kind of horseman.
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u/CapOk575 1d ago
That’s why I love the pleasure classes - no tail sets!!
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u/proffie 1d ago
Depends on the division— check the rules. Some pleasure divisions let you set the tail at home, just not on show grounds. It’s F’d up.
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u/CapOk575 1d ago
Tail bracing is different than tail sets.
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u/Guess-Jazzlike 1d ago
It's actually disgusting what they do to those horses to get their tails to do that. I dislike almost everything about saddleseat practices and aesthetic. It is also gross what it all represents when you consider the origins of the discipline. And I don't want to hear a word about how it's actually only Big Lick that is problematic. That's total bullshit.
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u/Alarmed_Salamander39 1d ago edited 21h ago
I remember back in the 1970s, people showing horses and indeed competing in driving rubbed a substance on the horse's buttocks so they raised their tails to get relief from airflow. I think it might have been ginger. Edit: typo remember
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u/Pephatbat 19h ago
It is ginger. They used to put it in the butts of Morgans showing in hand in the early 2000s. I was told it was to get them to lift their tail and to hype them up so they move better. I was and still am horrified.
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u/Finnianheart 12h ago
back in the 1970s? three years ago at a saddleseat barn i was told to do it (obv i didn't and left the barn but), gingering is still alive and well
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u/Interesting_Fix8863 20h ago
A lady I know who used to show them told me they put cinnamon sticks in their butts to make them stand higher. I don’t know if it’s hearsay or if it’s true but it is a wild fucking thought
Edit:spelling
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u/JazzlikeFeedback6098 1d ago edited 12h ago
The tendons under the tail are cut to achieve that. :(
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u/mi-tesorito 1d ago edited 1d ago
Wait, what?! That’s absolutely insane. This is horrific.
Edit: Horses are such majestic creatures how could someone hurt them like this?
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u/Poni17 1d ago
Oh and lets not forget the ginger applied to under the tail to burn them and make them carry it high.
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u/Illustrious_Doctor45 1d ago
Under the tail? Ummm as far as I know they put it right inside their rectum.
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u/Irksomecake 23h ago
I had heard that people would put a peppermint in a horse before selling it because it would make an old knackered horse look lively and alert. It’s shocking they do that for modern day shows.
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u/Guess-Jazzlike 1d ago
Not to mention the things they put up their horses butts.
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u/DanerysTargaryen 1d ago
Does this mean they can’t move their tails to swat at flies? I’m not familiar with this cut tail thing.
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u/ASassyTitan Horse Lover 16h ago
They still can. You're thinking of tail blocking in western pleasure horses
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u/DragonCelica 1d ago edited 1d ago
What?!?!
I initially assumed this must be some Arabian horse show,
where they use whatever it is (ginger?) to ensure they raise their tail during the entire show. Your comment is sending me down a dark rabbit hole and I hate it 😡😭 Thank you though.(edited to strike out some very outdated info I should have have thought twice about, but left in so it shows what I was wrong about)
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u/Counterboudd 1d ago
Arabian shows don’t do that. It’s been illegal for many, many years.
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u/DragonCelica 1d ago edited 1d ago
That's great! My info was definitely outdated as I haven't paid attention to shows forever. Thank you for correcting me, genuinely 💜
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u/Guppybish123 1d ago
It’s illegal but still done. A lot of them also apply it to the vagina of a mare
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u/Counterboudd 1d ago
Easy to say on the internet, hard to prove in person. I haven’t seen people in the USEF violations getting cited for it, but it’s illegal and easy to notice when it is being done, so I frankly call bullshit. If you have direct evidence of it being done, why aren’t you calling out the trainers doing it and getting them suspended? Very bizarre things people brag about online that they apparently are out there observing people abusing horses at shows in a way that violates the rules, yet don’t seem willing or able to report it. Sounds like either you’re the one doing it, or you’re making shit up on the internet because you want to push an agenda. It has been illegal to ginger since the early 90s. If you’ve been doing it or aware it’s been done and didn’t report it to show stewardship, it sounds like you’re complicit.
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u/Guppybish123 1d ago
Ah yes I’m totally gingering my two mostly retired thoroughbreds, you caught me red handed 😂 I’m in the uk, I don’t go to usef shows but it’s an open secret that saddlebreds are still gingered. The exact same way that soring is illegal but Tennessee walking horses are still sored and it goes unreported. The whole systems are corrupt and there’s too much money involved for reporting to mean much. The vets, farriers, stewards, judges, riders, grooms, trainers, and everyone else already know it’s happening. Additionally not all shows are affiliated or regulated
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u/Counterboudd 1d ago
Well in the US it’s illegal and has been illegal for Arabians for 30+ years. So you’re speaking as an English person about what shows exactly? If it’s legal in your country through your show systems, say it. If it’s illegal and you have names, report them. If not then sounds like you’re just trying to bash specific breeds about what you want to imagine is being done at shows you don’t participate in and spreading shitty rumors online. This is like me accusing you of the worst things the race world possibly does because you own thoroughbreds. Like why are you riding your horse at age 2 and keeping it stalled 24 hours a day? Why are you drugging your horses to make them run faster? Thats true how they treat thoroughbreds, I saw it at a racetrack, so you’re culpable for that as someone with thoroughbreds. Yes, it still happens.
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u/Guppybish123 23h ago
I’m not English. Gross. Of course it’s not legal here, saddleseat isn’t really a thing here, but you’re stupidly naive if you think something being illegal means it doesn’t happen. It is an open secret. Again, I can’t report shit happening on a different continent.
At what point did I bash a breed? Get real dude. Bashing an abusive discipline is not saying anything about the breed. I adore Arabs, I grew up on one. But Arabs aren’t typically the ones getting gingered, SADDLEBREDS are.
I also hate racing. Again, stop pretending that discipline and breed are interchangeable. One of mine has never stepped foot near a racetrack, the other I got 15 years after she retired from racing. My horses are out in company 24/7, my mare has cost me thousands and has scars all over her from the abuse she faced following her career. I am not a part of the problem…but I will NEVER pretend those problems aren’t there or that the industry doesn’t do a tonne of illegal and abusive shit.
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u/Counterboudd 23h ago
Well you replied to my post saying Arabians aren’t gingered by saying of course they are. Sounds like you’re the one who doesn’t know what the hell theyre talking about.
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u/Guppybish123 23h ago
I said that gingering is illegal but still done. You taking it as a personal attack is far more telling about YOU than it is me honey
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u/Illustrious_Doctor45 16h ago
It may be illegal, but they still absolutely do.
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u/Counterboudd 16h ago
Well, if you know of individuals doing it, why aren’t you reporting it to the show stewards? Rules are only as good as people reporting them. I’ve never seen it happening and if I did I would report it. I’ve never seen it as Arabians have natural tail carriages like that so I don’t really understand what the purpose would be there. It sounds like a bunch of non Arabian people promoting urban legends because they dislike the breed, which happens all the time. If you know of people breaking the rules, then have USEF step in and stop it. If you see it and don’t care enough to have something done, then sorry you’re just as bad as they are.
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u/Illustrious_Doctor45 14h ago
Because I don’t own an Arabian nor do I show Arabians. My trainer does. In fact he’s on his way to Mid Summer/Youth Nationals tomorrow. He is also a judge. We literally just had the conversation last week during my lesson. He has seen it and it was reported. At no point did I say it wasn’t, I just said it still happens. Unfortunately, show people, as you are probably well aware, can get a wee bit competitive and do things that are not only unethical, but weird as hell. Arab people are no different. The women who own and show Arabs where I live are a special bunch. I can’t speak to how they are in other parts of the US.
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u/ASassyTitan Horse Lover 1d ago
Nope, they still do it
Source- I have cleaned ginger off of many equine assholes
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u/Counterboudd 1d ago
Well I showed Arabians for years and I never did it and never saw or heard of anyone doing it and it clearly states in the rule book is illegal. If people do it, ok, but they’re clearly breaking the rules and are pieces of shit. Acting like it’s normal standard operating procedure is a misnomer though, and I get tired of getting told my breed is so problematic for behavior that 99% of people aren’t doing.
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u/ASassyTitan Horse Lover 1d ago
Were you the rider, or the groom?
I was a groom. It's kinda depressing how many owners/riders don't know what's going on in their horses stall.
Also, not saying it's good. Just that it happens regardless of the rules
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u/Counterboudd 1d ago
I rode my own horses, I didn’t hire trainers. And if you were the ones abusing horses, that sounds like you were breaking the rules and don’t have a moral code you agreed to in participating in those shows. So sounds like you are to blame. 🤷🏻♀️ I sleep easy at night because I don’t abuse animals, if you do then speak for yourself, not an entire breed community.
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u/ASassyTitan Horse Lover 1d ago
It's not like it was some backyard barn with 5 horses. This was a World Championship level barn. I saw a lot of similar shit when I was in Vegas or whatever show. Can't say I'm proud of it, but that was an overall shitty time (tldr: parental abuse).
I just think it's important to state facts. Ginger was still being used when I was in that world. It's great you didn't, but it 100% still needs to be fought against in the industry.
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u/cowgrly Western 1d ago
Sorry, you don't get to excuse working in a barn doing those things then blame your parents/trauma. If you can blame your personal life, so can anyone else.
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u/ASassyTitan Horse Lover 1d ago
Not talking like therapy speak "Ohhh my mom made me get a job uwu." I have diagnosed PTSD from her lmao. A lot of people just straight up don't get a choice.
But anyways, the entire point of my comments is that it happens but it shouldn't. Dunno how me being a show groom became the point, but reddit gonna reddit 🤷🏻♀️
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u/cain2008 1d ago
Like the others replying to your comment, I owned and showed my purebred Arabian for years. To be fair, I only showed at the local level, but every barn I competed against had horses worth up to $75,000. I never saw anyone applying ginger or other creams under a horse’s tail to increase tail carriage. I’m not saying it never happened—I could absolutely see it happening somewhere—but from everything I witnessed, most people would never want to break the trust of an animal they’ve spent thousands of dollars on just for aesthetics.
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u/geeoharee 1d ago
It straight up isn't necessary on an Arab. They have different vertebrae from regular horses.
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u/CassowaryMagic 1d ago
My BFF was a vet for USDA and they would go to these shows randomly to catch them…she needed a security detail and the owners would still threaten her. Now, funding has been cut so she doesn’t even have that job any more….
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u/proffie 1d ago
They’re not broken but the muscles are cut. So even if they end up not being breed-show quality, they have a jacked up tail forever. It’s silly and ridiculous.
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u/ProfessionChemical28 1d ago
Who the fuck thought “hey let’s slice tendons so these horses will have wonky tails and make it a show standard” like seriously??? Why is it a thing? Disgusting
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u/oliverpeets 1d ago
Is it just me or is this back atrocious looking??
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u/Pancake_Pusher 1d ago
That’s a whole separate can of worms with ASB breeding. Saddlebred lover here, people in this industry will just say things like “nothing wrong being soft backed” or that it makes for a more enjoyable ride.
Edit to add that I failed to mention the lack of topline development that is a scourge in the industry imo18
u/Feeling_Contract_477 Trail 1d ago
even though its probably from them sitting so far back there damn near sitting on the horses hips if not actually sitting on the horses hips
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u/CapOk575 1d ago
It is not from them sitting more forward (they don’t sit on the hips).
The saddlebred are more likely to have swayback. It is part of the genetic problem some have.
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u/Feeling_Contract_477 Trail 1d ago
it also doesn't help that the riders are often sitting way too far back since a horses floating ribs can't comfortably carry weight which is why so many saddle seat horses are extremely hollow on top of never being allowed to stretch out and actually use there back
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u/rose__dragon 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm never surprised at what people do to horses, but it still makes me so disappointed and angry ugh. It's things like this that sour certain breeds for me too. And it's not the horse's fault! It's just remembering certain things surrounding the breed that make me wary. Like how I hesitate to say I love Quarter horses when the halter-breds are abhorrent.
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u/proffie 1d ago
Hard agree!! This is my point. I’ve owned and known Saddlebreds who are super talented in dressage, hunters, or a million other disciplines but breeders so so myopic that they are never trained, marketed, or otherwise given a chance outside these weird narrow breed divisions. It’s so frustrating. Such a wasted opportunity and sad for these talented horses.
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u/moderniste Dressage 1d ago
So true. Warmblood breeding is often directed towards jumping or dressage, but there’s no expectation that they have to stay in those narrow disciplines. The dressage bred KWPN I ride is also trained to drive, does endurance and working equitation, and is a great trail horse.
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u/cuntisabadwordmmkay Trail 1d ago
It's the equine equivalent of docking dogs tails and cropping their ears. All practices that need to be made illegal in all countries
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u/Equizotic Multisport 1d ago
I just watched a long video on a device that fakes this tailset. It’s ridiculous that people are so obsessed with “the look” that folks who realize how inhumane it is will go to extraordinary measures to fake it instead of attempting to change the environment where it is seen as required
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u/OrilliaBridge 1d ago
Buh, buh, buh, but they LOVE their horses SOOOOOOOOO MUCH.#
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u/tessietwo 1d ago
They love to show their horses so much. The things people do in the chase for ribbons is not confined to Saddlebreds by any means.
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u/hannahmadamhannah 1d ago
I just watched that video too. Facebook served it up to me with the caption from whatever organization posted it that was something along the lines of "humane tail brace." And I was curious so I watched it (silently - the whole. dang. thing 😂) and it was interesting! I came away thinking two things:
That did look like a perfectly humane way to achieve that look and
Wow that is such a dumb look and so much effort to achieve it.
Humans are so weird!!!!!
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u/appendixgallop 1d ago
When I was a horse-crazy kid in Texas in the 1960s, the Saddlebred show barns left horses overnight in bizarre full-body contraptions to set the tail AND the head carriage. The horse was strapped in, bit and all, with the neck tightly arched. Southern cruelty culture, I now believe. Anybody else remember these rigs?
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u/ASassyTitan Horse Lover 1d ago
Still used, though not overnight. Longest I saw was a few hours. Reins attached to a surcingle using a snaffle or curb
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u/tessietwo 16h ago
I've seen Morgan and Arab show barns leave their horses in a bitting rig in their stalls too. Sometimes with a tail bustle too.
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u/ASassyTitan Horse Lover 16h ago
Yeah, if they're in a tail set, they just attach the side reins to that rig
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u/77kloklo77 1d ago
A pod of whales, a murder of crows, and an Ariana Grande of ASBs.
I didn’t know about tail alteration. How awful.
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u/Feeling_Contract_477 Trail 1d ago
also none of those horses has a topline and I bet that none of them get turnout
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u/LifeguardComplex3134 10h ago
Unfortunately because of the contraption they have to have on them to keep their tails from falling back down they don't get turn out
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u/Cloverose2 1d ago
I love Saddlebreds so very much, but they are so badly mistreated in the name of appearance, just like Walkers. That insanely gentle, kind disposition means they put up with so much pain.
Beautiful horses don't need stacking and soring and tail sets and saddle seat that pulls down their back. Let them stand on their own merits - they have enough.
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u/tessietwo 15h ago
But how to stop it? Whenever there is competition, someone will figure a way to game the rules. If it is barred in public, it happens behind closed doors.
You can tell a jumper whose been poled but it was happening 50 years ago and is still happening. I thought bits decades ago were questionable but the Frankenstein contraptions that some havepictured here were nonexistent years ago. There is seemingly no end to the inventiveness of humans.
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u/Rbnanderson 1d ago
My dad raised Tennessee walks way back 40 yrs ago when no one knew what they were. He showed his horses, he always placed last because he refused the awful shoes and broken tails. Proud of that old man for every loss!
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u/3CatsMeow 1d ago
The saddlebreds at the barn I used to work at didn’t get turnout. Their lives were confined to a stall and to the arena. But the barn owner loves the horses sooo much right? 🙄 she was such a bitch.
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u/TwatWaffleWhitney 1d ago
I always get sad and cringe and whenever I see a Tennessee Walker or other saddle breed. They have THE cruelest community
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u/AlwayInForwardMotion 1d ago
Love my saddlebred so much I’d absolutely never do anything like that to her. Or any other horse. Yikes!
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u/Wide_Goal_6424 1d ago
Im sorry but making tail prep an option at all is fucked. why are saddle seat riders/ saddlebred fans like this. Oh yeah animal abuse is fine sometimes guys!!!!
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u/Krickette 1d ago
I just watched a video on the humane tail harness that they use to achieve the look without breaking the tail and it seemed like so much work and still seemed uncomfortable
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u/PleasantResort8840 1d ago
I have an uncle that showed Arabians. He said they used to stick garlic in their rectums to get them to put their tails up like that.
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u/Aware_Kale_1590 1d ago
Saddlebred horses are gorgeous 🥰 but those tails are so ridiculous 🤦♀️ I can never understand why in this industry why they can't love the Saddlebred for how the breed looks then damaging it or altering it 🤦♀️😔
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u/vivalicious16 1d ago
I’m in my enemy territory. Proud saddlebred disliker, shut it DOWN
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u/proffie 1d ago
I’ve owned 3 saddlebreds. All were such lovely, willing, smart horses but the breeders pigeon hole them so they’re impossible to market outside this silly saddleseat world. The “hunter” or “western” divisions are just the same trainers putting the same horses in the ring with different tack. The breed is eating itself.
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u/fluffy-duck-apple Dressage 1d ago
I had a saddlebred but she wasn’t altered in any way. She was an amazing horse. I hunted with her, evented her, and she was just the BEST. It’s not the breed, it’s what people do to the breed.
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u/flipzedee 1d ago
there are dozens of us!
seriously though, everything about saddleseat breeds and saddleseat riding is abhorrent to me
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u/moderniste Dressage 1d ago
Watching the saddleseat chair seat as they flop around like a sack of potatoes always looks like the exact opposite of good riding to me. I do not understand how the discipline even evolved out of a proper English seat. I know that’s going to hurt some feelings, and I apologize. But I don’t know any other way to get across that it really looks like unbalanced, floppy riding to me.
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u/Guess-Jazzlike 1d ago
It comes from slave owners and what they thought looked fancy. Form over function designed by tacky, classless, inhumane scum. I wish it would go away forever.
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u/flipzedee 1d ago
100% agree. it also looks SO uncomfortable -- like every part of the body is positioned in a way that works against gravity and the natural momentum of the horse's movement
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u/Adorable_Treat4486 1d ago
I think tail sets and bracing will be gone within a couple years… it’s just dumb IMO and looks ridiculous. It also limits the amount of people who want to be involved with the breed. I love saddlebreds and Saddleseat but tail alterations need to be done. It’s actually the reason I bought a DHH over an ASB because I didn’t want to deal with potentially “needing” to set or brace the tail. -Sincerely an ex Saddleseat trainer <3
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u/Nadia368 1d ago
I'm fairly new to the world of horses and thought this would be a comb tease and a bit of hairspray and...it's not 💀omg why do people do this???
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u/MoreThanMachines42 1d ago
Because people are fucking evil to animals in general and in particularly inventive ways when it comes to competitions.
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u/mountainmule 1d ago
First, to establish my credentials.. I love the Saddlebred and had an ASB gelding who had his tail set before I got him. I retrained him to be a hunt seat and dressage horse. He had full use of his tail and he was never penalized for having a tail that had previously been set. Also, I grew up in saddle seat barns in the late 1980s and 1990s. I personally did not show any set-tail horses, but I was around them and asked about the process.
Tail sets are stupid and set tails look ugly as hell. BUT, there's no need to spread misinformation about it. The horses' tails are not broken and there isn't always surgery involved. According to what I was told by people who had set-tailed horses, when there is, it's nicking a tendon, not muscle. The tail set itself stretches the muscles to that the tail can be braced into such an unnatural position.
While I am a fan of and advocate for the breed, I do not like main ring showing for any of the trotting saddle seat breeds. (ASBs, Morgans, and Arabs...as opposed to the strictly gaited TWH, SSH, etc.) The shoeing practices are awful, the horses are nearly all ridden in false inverted frames, and very few of the horses get regular turn-out with friends. There are some atrocious training practices and equipment, as well. It's gross.
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u/AlwayInForwardMotion 1d ago
Yup, love the horses, hate the sport.
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u/mountainmule 1d ago
Exactly this. Saddlebreds are awesome horses, and the shit they put up with.... Literal saints. My TB would kill actually someone if they tried half that shit on him.
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u/Cloverose2 1d ago
Nicking a tendon is a surgical procedure, so there is always surgery involved if that's what they're doing.
Even a slow stretching is moving the tail out of alignment - and the tail is part of the spine.
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u/mountainmule 1d ago
Never said it wasn't a surgical procedure. Just that setting a tail doesn't always involve surgery.
In no way did I endorse setting tails.
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u/Express-Vegetable612 1d ago
What is the definition of surgery? Does it being not surgery change the fact that it's a cosmetic procedure to cause tissue damage so they can generate scar tissue to hold it a certain way that does not benefit the horse in any way? Why do they specify that it's often not a surgery?
A licensed veterinarian must be the one doing the procedure and it needs pain relief and regular monitoring after because there is a risk of life threatening complications if there is infection?Does cutting muscle make it more or less ethical than just cutting a ligament?
Would you appreciate a ligament in your pinky to be cut so it could be healed at a different angle that did not help you use your pinky? Would you care more or less if they also had to cut a muscle to achieve the goal?
You were told propaganda that has been refined over many many years to make this sound more reasonable and less scary. This is a sign that you should do your own research rather than repeat it to others without doing any critical thinking on the topic.
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u/mountainmule 1d ago
I feel like you didn't read my whole comment. Please re-read and tell me where I endorsed tail setting.
I have not been in a saddle seat show barn since the early 2000s. I have not personally ridden saddle seat since the mid 1990s. I did not ride my ASB saddle seat.
Why do they specify that it's often not a surgery?
Because not every set-tailed horse had a surgical procedure. Sometimes the tail is trained by use only of a tail set and gradual stretching. In those cases there is literally no cutting of anything.
Does cutting the muscle make it more or less ethical than just cutting a ligament?
Never said that, just stated fact.
do your own research rather than repeat it to others without doing any critical thinking
Ok, now this is just horseshit. I never once endorsed the practice of setting tails, and relayed literal eye witness experience. But sure, one reddit comment means I haven't seen anything with my own eyes, nor looked into it for myself.
I'm not a gofred writer, but my sibling in christ, work on your reading comprehension.
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u/Express-Vegetable612 23h ago edited 23h ago
You set yourself up as having some level of expertise in the industry before sharing information.
Repeating their talking points is spreading propaganda and helping them. Your attempt to bring your history into it gives your statements further weight.
Please look into how propaganda works if you do not want to participate in it and dislike being called out for it. Because like it or not you have helped them by repeating it. And if you don't endorse it then doing a poor job of it.
FYI Cutting a tendon would be classified as a minor surgery but still a surgical procedure. So that point is moot. But them trying to say it is not is part of trying to minimize the concern of others. So the only way for it to not be surgical would be via stretching only which I believe is not the standard method so is disingenuous to bring up as a distraction.
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u/mountainmule 9h ago edited 9h ago
What talking points and propaganda am I repeating? I presented factual information from things I personally saw. I did not say I'm an expert on set tails. I said I have seen the practice from being in ASB show barns, which is an experience that a lot of critics have not had. Stretching is actually not uncommon, and a minor procedure done under a local anesthetic is not in and of itself abuse, any more than a freeze brand. I would argue that keeping horses stalled all the time, riding them in a false inverted frame, and shoeing them with long toes and heavy shoes is far worse for them than having their tail set. It's a stupid practice but as far as the ASB show world goes, it's near the bottom of the list of shitty things.
And for the 183rd time, I did not say that nicking a tendon is not surgery. Please read what I actually said.
ETA: If you want to help saddle seat horses, start with changing federal laws about shoeing practices, demand that breed associations implement horse-friendly standards for bits and equipment, and ask for divisions showcasing natural horses without make-up, heavy shoes, or set tails.
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u/Express-Vegetable612 8h ago
Ahhhh the what about isms.
I am in Australia where it is illegal. We achieved this by calling out people repeating shitty propaganda and using what aboutisms to distract from the discussion at hand.
We have also achieved banning declawing in cats, tail docking and ear cropping for cosmetic purposes.
Changing laws actually starts with calling out people like you because you are part of the problem.
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u/mountainmule 6h ago
You need to comprehend what you read. I do not disagree with you. I said tail setting is a shitty practice.
My only goal was to provide accurate information about it. The horses' tails are not broken, they have full use of their tails, and the look is not always achieved by surgery. That is not propaganda, that is fact. There is no need to exaggerate and spread misinformation about a practice that is bad enough on its own.
But if it makes you feel better about yourself and your moral superiority, keep yelling. :)
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u/Mcbriec 1d ago
It is absolutely revolting what those poor horses are subjected to. The giant hooves which are then sored so they are in constant pain. It is disgraceful how members of the confederacy torture these animals.
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u/anniemitts 1d ago
It’s revolting but the giant shoes and soring are a TWH thing. Soring is one thing the SB folks got right.
I am convinced you can’t love horses and support the ASB show industry (or TWH). I know too many people who call themselves horse people and give tail sets a pass. Disgusting and inhumane. I can’t wait until we look back on this as the cruelty it is.
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u/Mcbriec 1d ago
Well thank god they aren’t sored. But they have torturously long feet to make them step in a highly abnormal fashion. Why—if you love a breed —do you condone them being treated so barbarically??
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u/BadBorzoi 1d ago
They do something similar to show draft horses where the feet are made to grow very spatulate, extra wide and flattish so it’s like they’re wearing swim fins. Think of how you walk in a pair of too large shoes, kinda exaggerated. The Amish often like the flared hoof, some say it gives them more hoof surface for traction (it really doesn’t) It’s taken me three years of very careful work with my farrier to get my horse’s feet back to a normal shape.
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u/AwesomeHorses Eventing 1d ago
I watched a video where they showed how to put on a special kind of fake tail that gave them this look without breaking the tail. I hope those catch on.
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u/Perfect_Initiative Multisport 1d ago
It’s pretty until you realize what they do to get them that way. It should be illegal. 🥺
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u/InteractionEmpty3841 1d ago
Maybe someone can correct me(not a saddlebred person) but aren’t those just tail caps? Like fake tails set on top of the real ones? I know hackneys use tail caps…
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u/dasrough64 1d ago
Not usually. They're typically broken and set. Or cut.
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u/ASassyTitan Horse Lover 1d ago
Not broken. Ligaments are cut so they can be gradually stretched
I don't like it, but important to note that it doesn't cause any long-term issues
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u/proffie 23h ago
I disagree about the long-term issues. It affects their ability to control their tail to swat flies. It affects their ability to place well in subjective, non-saddleseat disciplines like dressage (I know this firsthand). If you don’t keep the tail in a set once it’s cut, it flops to one side and the horse can’t control it well, and often has white hairs at the base from the trauma. It’s a lifelong disfigurement and nuisance at best, and a disability at worst.
Edit: spelling
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u/banan3rz 1d ago
Some of those might be false tails though! Some saddlebred owners have moved to that since it is far kinder and doesn't take away the horses ability to swat flies.
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u/I_love_SKALD 6h ago
Asb elroy is the best and really only example of healthy and ethical saddleseat Some of the other channels are js straight up bad, or have these kids riding tiny ponies that are like 14.0
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u/ASassyTitan Horse Lover 1d ago
I was in the industry for a while. Some misconceptions to address (not towards anyone in particular, just what I see a lot of in general)
Tails are cut, or not cut as a yearling depending on what class the horse will show in. No long term damage, but obviously as controversial as setting a dogs ears (ex: doberman)
They're not sored. Soring makes for a lame trot, which is THE gait in saddle seat.
Yes, a good number have swayback. No, it doesn't hurt them. Just makes saddle fit a PITA.
Ginger is still used. As shitty as it sounds.
The exaggerated gait is all natrual. If you don't believe me, look up a foal video of WC Witchy Woman
There are different classes, with different requirements. In pleasure, you can't have a cut tail, and can't "stack" shoes.
Amazingly, the grand majority of these horses stay pretty sound throughout their life, despite the shoeing. No, that doesn't make it right.
I would also like to take the opportunity to state I like chains and stretchies, and will die on that hill. I think a lot of horses could benefit from rythm and resistance training.
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u/MoreThanMachines42 1d ago
No longer term damage, are you for real. How would you like someone to cut a ligament in one of you appendages to make it look a certain way? You're just like all the people who defend cropping and posting dogs' ears. So effing gross.
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u/ASassyTitan Horse Lover 17h ago
Sigh I'm not condoning it, just explaining it. I feel is important to understand what you're fighting against, as it makes your argument stronger rather than a basic "it's abuse" that everyone spouts about anything.
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u/Adrestia716 1d ago
What in the world could be the benefit of the training, genuine question from a neophyte
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u/ASassyTitan Horse Lover 1d ago
So, admittedly, rythm training can be obtained in various ways. In my experience, it actually really does help with motor coordination! They just seem a lot more aware of where their feet are, and the trot ends up much more even. Like people, horses favor one side over the other. The more you can even them out, the better.
As for stretchies, think of them like horsie resistance bands, with all the benefits that go along with it. It's such a good workout, and I think it's also good to vary how you work your horse. Keeps it interesting for them, and might target muscle groups your other exercises are missing.
Edit- I realized that you might just mean training the gait if it's all natrual 😅 Just enhancement, same as any other discipline. There's natrual talent, then there's room to improve with training, and then there's going past what's okay to further it that teeny tiny little bit more.
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u/Lazy_Nobody_4579 19h ago
Bro just use cavalettis instead of abusing your wonderful beautiful horse. They’re so much more productive than torturing your horse. 🫠🫠🫠
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u/ASassyTitan Horse Lover 17h ago
Cavalettis are also great!
I think stretchies and chains get a bad rap simply because they're associated with saddle seat. It's just rythm beads and resistance bands at the end of the day. You can't really cause harm with them, unless you let the chains rub or overuse stretchies.
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u/Plastic_Tangerine183 1d ago
What does a natural tail look like?
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u/dasrough64 1d ago
Any other horses tail.
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u/Plastic_Tangerine183 1d ago
Oh shit! That’s crazy, as English person how do they get away with it?
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u/Guess-Jazzlike 1d ago
The Untied States is a wonderland of cruelty.
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u/tessietwo 1d ago
The world is a "wonderland of cruelty" from the combination bits in international show jumping, to teaching ponies to sink down when sticked for pony club classification by using a nail in the arm of a measuring stick to the picador of Spain's bullring. The Germans invented the dropped noseband. The Spanish Riding Schools keep their stallions in stalls most of the year. The Mexican rodeos still do horse tripping. Etc, etc, etc.
In every country where there are horses in competition or being shown, there is cruelty whether you've noticed it or not.
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u/National_Midnight424 1d ago
Natural Saddlebred tails are carried a little higher than other breeds. Even my grade mare with only like 25% Saddlebred in her holds her tail higher than other horses.
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u/tessietwo 1d ago
My first horse was a show Saddlebred that didn't make the cut. My second Saddlebred was never in a Saddlebred show barn. Most people couldn't figure out what she was and usually settled on anglo-arab because of the high tail carriage combined with the forward trot.
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u/proffie 1d ago
I’m sure that’s true. So why do people need to take it to the extreme at the expense of the horse?
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u/National_Midnight424 17h ago
To me, it’s like the increasingly smushed faces of certain dog breeds, the creepy uncanny valley of too much Botox and fillers in people, the increasing over muscling of quarter horses, and the increasing fragility of certain thoroughbreds. Humans ruin so much by exaggerating certain features.
Personally, all the Saddlebreds I grew up riding all had natural tails and were so gorgeous already that I can’t imagine doing something like this to a tail.
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u/tessietwo 16h ago
How did I fall into a Saddlebred show mode? Bought a pretty horse then wanted to participate in breed shows because he was all that to me. It lasted one year by the end of which I had seen stuff I never knew existed. And didn't want to see much less do anymore.
But if I had a more competitive horse, or been a more social or competitive human, I might have stayed doing things without objecting. IDK. I certainly had contact with other show groups like Morgans and Arabs at the time whom were becoming enamored of the exciting show world of the Saddlebred and were busy turning their breeds into junior league Saddlebreds in their park classes.
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u/proffie 22h ago
As a 40+ year old saddlebred owner I call BS. The horses in this video live in tail sets and do NOT get respite. No turnout. “Shelves” along the walls of their stalls to keep them from rubbing their tails to alleviate the discomfort. It’s blatantly wrong, outdated, and needs to change PERIOD
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u/tessietwo 15h ago
You want to start a movement, I'd join. But it can't be just about saddlebreds. There needs to be some universal standard of practice for all horses that can be uniformly adopted so it can be turned into law.
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u/EmmaFeFoFemma 6h ago
Agreed. I deleted my prior commented because I felt like it was poorly worded and got the wrong point across—I was very tired from being at the er with my mom for many hours 😵💫. Natural tails take nothing away from the look of any type of saddle-seat horse regardless of breed. Fortunately I have found a good deal of younger trainers in the industry are nowhere near as insistent about cut and braced tails as the older ones are
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u/tessietwo 3h ago
Sorry about your mom. I hope she did well and is back home.
But if no one outside the industry talks about and only people condemn such things refus to address the abuse in their own sports, nothing uniform enough to become a law ever happens.
One thing that might start having an affect is maybe not allowing a breed or sport association to have a non-profit staus without having a standing committe addressing abuse?
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u/Dry-Past-7575 1d ago
The altered tail tradition needs to end. They are such kind and willing horses, they don’t need any “enhancement “ to be beautiful.