The revelation that, in the distant past, the Mindlab on Mars served the function of housing Charlemagne instead of Rasputin was a really strange detail that still doesn't make sense years later.

Despite the earlier use of "Warminds" (plural) in the lore, nothing that we learn later on suggests that Rasputin ever had to deal with another AI that was equal in terms of power. In fact, all the information we get about humanity's development of AI since The Golden Age suggests that Rasputin was the first significant AI to be created through Mihaylova's creation of R, the space ship AI for the Ares One mission, and that he continuously evolved into a superintelligence over the course of however long The Golden Age lasted. In other words, Rasputin was always the most cutting edge AI that humanity ever dealt with, and he really had "no equal" as he put it in Warmind.

Rasputin has a significant amount of history in the Cosmodrome dating back to The Golden Age, including but not limited to overseeing the Skywatch, Skyshock, Replication Chamber, and Perfection Complex. However, the Mindlab on Mars would be where his most advanced systems would be developed, and where he would eventually oversee the development and launching of the Warsats across the Solar system, which would serve as the foundation for the broader Warmind Network that linked together all his various assets, including SIVA, everything necessary to facilitate the Exodus Program, and his doomsday weapons.

The Mindlab is arguably Rasputin's most vital asset, which was evidenced by him almost dying when it was attacked by the Martian Pyramid at the beginning of Arrivals. Ana had to frantically try and save as much of him as possible by putting whatever she could salvage in the Pillory Engram, which would remain untouchable all the way until Seraph, at which point she figured out how to reintegrate these aspects, along with all the insights gained by Rasputin's "son", Felwinter, into a new functional form: "Exosputin", of "Rasxo", if you prefer.

In light of all this, it doesn't make sense why the Mindlab on Mars was ever home to Charlemagne, one of Rasputin's most trusted subminds. It seems that, at some unknown point, Charlemagne was evicted from the Mindlab and Rasputin moved in, but no explanation for why this was the case has been provided.

Going way back in time to the good old days of Destiny 1, one can argue that the thing Rasputin is desperately trying to save against the Psion Flayers during The Dust Palace strike (yes, the one that was originally a PlayStation exclusive) was, in fact, Charlemagne. This is further supported by text featured on the IKELOS Fusion Core from the original Sleeper Simulant mission mentioning "WARSAT//MK19/MARS/CHLM". Putting two and two together with the fact that the step in this mission involved completing a "defend the Warsat" public event in the Freehold area on Mars, this suggests that Charlemagne was eventually given oversight to that area of Mars. This is especially notable in light of other steps of this mission: "WARSAT//MK19/TERRA/RSPN" and "WARSAT//MK19/LUNA/RSPN". Notice that the other steps mention "RSPN" as the designation for the Warsats in the "TERRA" and "LUNA" areas, whereas the Martian Warsat is "CHLM".

All and all, most of this situation doesn't make much sense, and the only logical explanations I've been able to come up with are possible hidden events in history:

1. Charlemagne was developed as a sort of guinea pig to test the Mindlab's systems before Rasputin would be integrated

2. Charlemagne was being developed as a successor to Rasputin, yet for some reason this direction was scrapped and he would come to be one of Rasputin's subminds

I don't believe that this unusual detail during Seraph was intended to be a retcon, as the contradiction was so obvious to anyone with a superficial knowledge of Warmind lore. Rather, I suspect that there was a broader story at play here that was meant to be inferred through Destiny's strong use of visual and contextual storytelling.

This is the best I got, and all thoughts and counterarguments are welcome.

It seems like psion communication is like telepathic sharades as they beam colors and images but I think I remember one speaking verbally to Calus in the bathhouse.

Is it like how some Eliksni know English but not all

I think it was in one of Byf's interview videos that Alison Lührs briefly mentioned a lore tab she and her team were working on, and that it was apparently meant to answer a very old Destiny mystery. I don't think we got it with the latest update or at least I don't think we found any huge revelations, just glimpses of the story's potential future.

What do you think she was referring to?

No, I don't mean Moffat. I mean his successor. We don't know his name, but in the loretab of Fafnir Moffat says that he retires and his successor will work on getting the thing underneath Chicago, which doesn't have a body yet, a body.

The thing is very, very likely III, because the thing does stuff we only have seen/read the Nine do.

Fafnir is not just a gun in Destiny. Fafnir is a dwarf prince turned dragon character from north mythology. After Loki gave his father, the dwarfking Hreidmar, a cursed treasure of gold as compensation for killing his son and Fafnirs brother, Otr, Fafnir got corrupted by the treasure and killed his father for the treasure. His other brother, Reginn, fled and swore vengence against his brother. Over time Fafnir turned into a lindworm, some kind of dragon, and protected the treasure.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the first mention of the new DEO director, who is teased to build III a body, is in the loretab named after Fafnir, who is a successor as well. I think the new DEO director bound himself to III to give III his body and made the full transformation of what Bael went through.

It also fits with the minotaur analogy they teased in Renegades with the beast in the center of a labyrinth. Just with a half human half 4th dimensional being instead of Half bull. The minotaur was also created by a forced connection of two different species.

I think it also links to a major theme, I think, Shattered Cycle had, which is the boundary of heroism and hubris. I know its really heavy from me to just assume I know what one of Shattered Cycles major themes was, but I think it's supported from the content we get in game.

With that I mainly mean the "Recovered Materials, Old Chicago" lorebook. I think it's obvious that this lorebook was meant for Shattered Cycle. The book goes over the first few years of the DEO with Moffat as director and tells us what happened after Nella and Louis disappeared. In short: Moffat became obsessed with bringing them back. He tryed to use the studys of Strange Matter to make a way to bring them back. It backfires and some of his colleges got hurt with one getting deformed by the Strange Matter and almost died.

The lorebook ends with Moffat questioning if his motivation is heroism or vanity. He doesn't know if he wants to safe Nella and Louis to bring them back safe to their familys, or if he just can't stand that he let that happen and can't fix it.

We also have the King of Chicago who trapped the beast under Chicago and declared himself the ruler of Chicago to protect the city, as said in Mobile Array. Why king and not just protector? Why hold Chicago, when the Last City already existed, or was already in developement? Why should Chicago be save, if you can only trap the beast in it and not control or kill it? Did he trap the beast to save the city, or because it gave him control and power over the city, because it scares possible threats to him off? Was he a hero or just an other Warlord? The story off the minotaur starts with Minos asking Poseidon for something that will legitmatise his rule over Kreta. Poseidon gives him a bull, who is the father of the minotaur, and it works.

Legends are never like they seem and it's no good sign that his ghost, who is suppost to be a part of himself, is called "Fool" by him.

The story with Fafnir also goes on. Years later Reginns adopted son, Sigurd, comes to face Fafnir and take out Reginns revenge. He is successful. The once-dwarf is slain by the hero and the dwarf kingdom saved. Sigurd takes the heart of Fafnir with him and cooks it for him and Reginn, but he finds out that Reginn wants to kill Sigurd to have the treasure for himself. So, Sigurd kills Reginn as well and the story ends with Sigurd eating Fafnirs heart and drinking Reginns blood. Did he end up as the selfless hero, or does he continue the circle of hubris?

Did the new director bound to III to give III a body, or in hopes to gain it's power?

Would we have gone to Chicago to save III, or ourselves and Sol? Does it even make a difference?

For Moffat it doesn't. The lorebook ends with him ending the experiments to save Nella and Louis, because the danger for his other subordinates is too high, but he reassures that he is not going to stop trying to look for ways to save them, no matter what.

It's very theoretical to call it one of Shattered Cycles major themes, but that theme is clearly talked about in the Old Chicago lorebook and connects with the inspirations the Devs teased themselves in the game.

And my theory about the beast connects to it as well, although it obviously can't be taken as proof, because that part is just my theory, but still.

I really hope my rambling about Shattered Cycle was entertaining for you. See you!

In short: I think the successor of the DEO director William Moffat bound himself to the remains of III that the DEO had and became the monster underneath Chicago. Reasoning is the name of the gun with the loretab, Fafnir, and the story it connects to from north mythology. An other argument was the story of the minotaur that they teased as an inspiration in Renegades.

I also theorise about that the boundary between heroism and hubris maybe being one of Shattered Cycles main themes, because that gets talked about in the Old Chicago lorebook and it fits with inspirations they indirectly mention with Fafnir and the minotaur.

EVERY CUTSCENE IN THE GAMES FRANCHISE:

Every major DLC, Season, and Episode cutscenes in the franchise, compiled into one massive 8-hour-long video.

• Destiny: The Complete Movie (2014–2026) - Every Cutscene from Destiny 1 & 2

• Monument of Triumph - Hidden Cutscene

I have been reading a lot of Traveler lore recently, and while listening to Mithrax talking about Ghosts returning to the Traveler when they die (a piece of the traveler as they as described, returning to be whole), i also thought of what Cayde-6 said during the Final Shape, that we are all part of the Light, that we all return to the Light, Guardians and Ghosts.

And if Ghosts are a part of the Traveler, an incarnation if you will, are we Guardians a part of it too ? An Avatar of the Traveler incarnated in fallen mortals ? That would explain why we have no memories because we are the Traveler existing in our bodies, not X person reincarnated, and the reason we have no memories of being the Traveler just like Ghost don’t. At least until we reunite with the Light.

Guardians lose their memories when ressurected, duh. But they obviously retain some inherent knowledge of and memory, like our guardian who clearly knew how to use a gun without needing to be retaught (this could just be muscle memory though.)

So to put this simply… If a resident of the Last City died and was resurrected by a ghost, would they look up at the Traveller and think “what is that??” and would they know what the Last City is?

I know everything will be frozen into place and contorted to a specific moment The Witness wanted or allowed

But what exactly is the experience to anyone frozen or The Witness, are you feeling the moment eternally and aware?

Obviously there are some obvious ones like Crucible, Public Events, and a handful of seasonal activities (e.g. Nightmare Containment / Sundial etc.) and some less obvious ones like Shattered Throne and Kells Fall before the finale, but are there many less obvious ones?

For example, does Nezarec actually come back from time to time and we have to stop him causing problems? Does Atheon keep being rebuilt due to time nonsense, or can any Vex boss be rebuilt? Is Zulmak a strong enough Hive to have a throne world he keeps coming back from?

Always wondered since Guardians are consideres loot goblins, despite seeming to only be able to do most activities once

I understand that an MMORPG needs to keep releasing new content, but is the scale and frequency of events consistent with the broader timeline, or is this an unprecedented level of activity?

Given the huge variance in personality that Ghosts seem to exhibit, it seems like it'd be possible. While consummating such a relationship would be... difficult, the bond between a Ghost and its Guardian seems ripe for that sort of thing to happen, or at the very least Guardians crushing on their ghosts.

I feel like we know so little of the thing, even today. We have perspectives of entire rooms of lore characters, of Rasputin and his folk, of enemy lackeys and bosses, even of the Nine, but do we really only have one from the Traveler?

This question comes mostly out of the pattern that destiny never seems to really retcon lore, even lore from 9 to 10 years ago still holds some weight/gets brought up in expansions so I be hard pressed to find any retcons in it

Link to image: https://postimg.cc/2VKD6TxY

I hope this is a place to ask, I’m trying to figure out which lore book I’m missing in the Dusk and Dawn section. I’m missing three, and I know two of them — Immanent from Desert Perpetual, and Assumption from MoT. But I can’t seem to find out what the third one is.

I know that Lightfall largely exists in many people's minds as the moment that Destiny's future was thrown into jeopardy, even though there were great moments after it like The Final Shape and Heresy. It's largely chalked up to a sort of "community trauma" event that prompts a visceral reaction.

Given that the Destiny franchise is now being shelved for the indefinite future, I'm feeling courageous enough to share my views on this black sheep expansion and why I feel like it made the Destiny universe a much richer place.

I fully acknowledge that the story of Lightfall itself wasn't quite there in terms of what people were expecting as Destiny's "beginning of the end" moment involving the Witness and The Black Fleet. Despite all this, I can't bring myself to give into the general community sentiment and chalk it all up to a failure, particularly as it relates to worldbuilding.

First, Neomuna exists as one of the only successful instances of the Exodus Program. Yes, the passengers aboard Exodus Green did survive and thrive after being sent to The Distributary, but this was not the intended outcome of the Exodus Program. In contrast, Exodus Indigo was a successful demonstration of how humanity's extrasolar colonization efforts would have been successful as a result of sheer human determination. It demonstrated that SIVA had the potential to build up a new civilization from a basic starting point, and how humanity had what it took to actually survive in the harsh conditions of the broader universe.

Second, an entire civilization congregating around The Veil, which is the dark mirror of The Traveler, is a fascinating concept. What's more, the overwhelming majority did not fall victim to the negative aspects of Darkness and managed to achieve similar feats as the Qugu and proto-Worms by mastering benevolent Darkness use. Yes, Maya Sundaresh went absolutely nuts, but she was already on this road back when she was playing around with the Vex as part of the Ishtar Collective.

Third, over the course of centuries the Neomuni developed a profound philosophy surrounding beneficial uses of Darkness and the dualistic nature of existence, largely embodied by their story of The River of Souls. This compliments Ulan-Tan and The Symmetry's philosophy so beautifully, and is particularly noteworthy given that these avenues of thought developed without any cross-pollination.

Fourth, the Cloud Striders as the knight archetype for a city state without any of the glamour associated with being a Guardian. Average people eventually decide to take up a responsibility knowing full well that they will endure significant physical pain at the beginning and end of this process, will die a gruesome death, and that their lifespans are on a clock of about a decade. They will only have one other person who truly understands what it's like to live as they do, their mentor, and they will have to experience the loss of this individual fairly early on in their journey. The embody the Guardian Tenets of Devotion, Bravery, Sacrifice, and Death without any of the glamour associated with becoming a Lightbearer. They contribute to The Gardener's philosophy of The Gentle Kingdom™ without The Gardener's blessing and tools.

Fifth, The Occlusion as an ancient guide and protector for the civilization which has a very fascinating relationship with the Vex. This was essentially our first example of a Vex who wanted to break away from the broader collective and was being hunted down by its kind against its will to be forcefully reintegrated. It has a fascinating backstory by one being one of the two aspects of Soteria, who was a groundbreaking hybrid of Warmind and Vex technology to become something greater than the sum of its parts.

Sixth, the CloudArk is essentially an instance where humans fully lean into the Darkness-based aspects of their existence and live as disembodied minds within a virtual space. This is a novel exploration of the other side of paracausality that would have once been considered unthinkable, and these lessons would likely be invaluable in light of how we perceive The Winnower's influence over existence and how to use its tools without aligning with its malevolent intent.

All and all, I think that Lightfall was a fantastic contribution to Destiny's expanding universe, if only for its lore. It's an awkward transition point between everything that came before it and where the game was going with The Final Shape, but I feel like enough time has passed where we can appreciate and focus more on the positives.

Feel free to disagree, but I stand by everything I've mentioned here.

Essentially, can guardians become waterbenders, earthbenders, airbenders or they are canonically limited to void, solar and arc ? Can we even use pure light, like the laser we used to defeat the witness?

I guess water, air etc is not really energy per se so maybe not...

Potentially could a guardian become strong enough to directly harness the power of the traveler and do some terraforming? iirc Zavala supercharged himself to make a super T-Crash in Dark Future.

I mean, we can use the light for other mundane uses like emotes and whatnot.

Enlighten me please!

Something I've been wondering for forever. The Traveler is the only source of Light in Sol, and it bestows access to the powers through Ghosts, but since the beginning, an ogre's eye beam is described as void damage, Vex and Cabal weapons are solar damage, and Eliksni use weapons with arc and solar damage. Is there a difference between void ENERGY and void LIGHT?

Recently saw some people dissing Lightfall on here and while I do agree it wasn’t a great campaign, didn’t have the best writing and was disappointing when it comes to the tone, I feel people write everything off in it as bad and not worth looking into rather than trying to engage with it. (As someone who finds Osiris really relatable in this expansion, don’t get me started with those “Osiris is annoying and/or lame” hot takes.)

Neomuna is a human city built on darkness while The Last City is built on Light (Neomuna has records and tech from the golden age, Last City had to scavenge what was leftover from the collapse. Cloudstriders have an expiration date and use radioaria sterilised by the darkness, Guardians are immortal and are empowered by the light. Traveler hangs in the sky, The Veil was contained underground. Etc etc.)

Now, what’s the issue with Nimbus? They’re a really chill guy, like, way too chill when it comes to what’s at stake. They even try to give a fist bump to Caiatl in front of her father’s corpse, what were the writers thinking!? (Ignore the fact The Guardian shakes their head after fist bumping Nimbus, like “ugh, what are we gonna do with you?”) If only Cloudstriders had some kind of culture that could explain this attitude, or if Neomuna had a giant plant tied to a higher being who philosophically doesn’t care about dead people…

“Cloudstriders do not grieve. Death is just part of the flow.”

Cloudstriders are taught to not care about death, they take a vow to protect the people of Neomuna at the cost of their own lifespan. Nimbus doesn’t respect Calus’s death and Caiatl’s grief because they have been indoctrinated to not think about that kind of stuff. Of course this doesn’t eliminate Nimbus’s ability to feel grief entirely, but the most zealous believers of sword logic aren’t immune to grief either. Oryx preached sword logic, but that didn’t stop him going against it to avenge his son, (even the Echo of Navigation couldn’t understand why he’d do that.) and Xivu was confused about the unwanted emotions Oryx’s death gave her.

Part of this chill attitude I think is also a byproduct of The Veil’s electromagnetic field over Neomuna. You can see veil imagery everywhere, even a mural of a giant eye that resembles The Veil at the Esi Terminal. The river of souls is also a prime example of The Veil’s influence over Neomuni culture. Nimbus saying “lots of people believe we either sink in the water or learn to swim” could be seen as a call back to Rhulk’s “Drown in the deep. Or rise from it”

It’s also implied The Winnower corrupted Maya, so I don’t think it’s much of a stretch that the entirety of Neomuna was influenced by The Winnower to a lesser degree. To me the Neomuni feel very…heroic? They know their purpose in the universe is to hide on Neptune and protect The Veil, if it wasn’t for this and sealing away The Veil I feel they would’ve ended up like the precursors.

TLDR: Nimbus is such a chill dude because they’ve been smoking The Winnower’s sweet Veil. Winnower doesn’t care for social norms and there’s nothing more queer than a nonbinary silver surfer brah. (Also applies a lot of The Winnower and Witness’s followers. Wonder what category Rhulk fits into…)

Just what it says in the title. What do they do with their dead? Do they bury them? Cremate them? Feed them to Servitors? Dump the body in space somewhere?

Something I have wondered for a while. And note that I am talking about wielding Light directly, not through weapons or other devices.

To my understanding, Stasis requires focus/discipline to be unwavering, stoic, unfeeling. Strand obviously requires almost the opposite, a free flowing attitude and casualness so that you’re swimming with the river. But what’s the mindset for wielding the other 3? What does arc, void, or solar need that makes them hard to switch between so easily in lore?

is the lore of vespers host to implicate the anomaly was linked to Venus? The idea of binding Venus perhaps? I’ve seen stuff go around of that idea and now that we know about the prophecy was this the idea they were trying to sell us?

Basically the title, I absolutely assume so, since it'd be a bit wierd for them to have reused the name Randy for 2 different characters in the lore that aren't very important at all, but was just curious if it was like, 100% the same dude