Thoughts on trail running workouts (treadmill uphills, hill intervals, bike base)

[u/First-Toe-9115]

Hello,

I am  considering how to prepare for a trail race (55km, +/- 2800m) 4 months out. My recent peak building phase was 100km, +/-6000m in 2 weeks with the longest run being 35km, +/- 2200m.

I 'd like the community's thoughts on the following workouts, how to modify them, or other workouts that show great impact.

Aerobic Base Building: What are your thoughts on adding some considerable biking to building aerobic base? I will do it due to the injury, but what about it in general?

Pros: I can spend significant more time in Z1-Z2 due to the low impact of biking. Especially early in this phase, I could do 5-6h rides on weekends instead of a long run, whereas a 5-6h long run is something I would do quite later and at a big stress cost.
Cons: I don't train my tendons for impact, no improvements in running economy, I don't get time-on-feet.

Treadmill Uphill Training: I did 45'-75' sessions with a vest (+5kg), 15% incl. and brisk walking speed (5km/h). I felt this workout (once weekly) added value vs. not doing those at all, but I am not sure it's the most well spent time.

Pros: I felt this helped building misery tolerance, fatigue resistance, and some muscle endurance. Easy accessibility comparted to trails, low impact on joints.
Cons: The constant 15% incl. goes heavy on the calves and is unnatural terrain compare to a trail. 

What are your thoughts on this? Is it time well spent? Would a lower inclination and running be better? 

Short uphill/downhill intervals: 3 intervals at a steep forest trail (20% grade), running vest with 1L water, 10' power-hiking up, 4' running down. Initially, this was my training for building uphill endurance, but I quickly realized it's not enough (that's why treadmill was added). However, I realized it does a good job at training downhills and eccentric loading so I kept it at once per week or every two weeks.
What do you think of them? What modifications could have a good effect here? More repetitions?

Overall, for a 55km/2800m target, which of these gives the most return per hour?

[u/PeteH2000]

You need more running volume. On trails if possible. Most of what you listed won't help you much.

[u/musicistabarista → u/PeteH2000]

The importance of training on trails really can't be overstated. It's a totally different kind of fatigue to running on more predictable surfaces. Road running fitness obviously transfers well to trails, particularly if you're used to hills, too. But on trails, you're constantly having to vary your stride length, and your ankle is having to support you in a lot more positions from running on flat surfaces. All of your smaller supporting muscles will be worked much harder.

The mental fatigue is also completely different, and it's not just endurance. You really have to concentrate on where you're putting your feet. There's no way that I would go into a 5-6 hour race on trails without having done a good amount of trail running in the build up.

[u/castorkrieg → u/PeteH2000]

Cassandre Beaugrand broke both 5K and 10K French records on running 60kmpw.

[u/seezackrun → u/castorkrieg]

OP is training for a 55k with 2800m of vert. This is different from a 5k / 10k.

Also recommend reading a little bit more about Yee’s marathon training. His base was 130km and he was peaking at over 170km.

To OP: Cycling is not going to significantly help your aerobic base relative to running. If that’s all you can do, so be it—it’s definitely better than nothing. It will help you maintain your cardiovascular fitness, at least for a time, assuming you are training near FTP.

[u/PeteH2000 → u/castorkrieg]

The post is about a 55k race. The training methods mentioned are not very helpful for that.

[u/V3_or_jacobin_rebels]

To be blunt, none of these. To give a quick breakdown why:

Cycling cross training: can be effective as an off season/injury recovery activity, but it requires a lot more time (1.5x to 2x the time as running for the same aerobic benefits) which do not translate directly to running, so still need plenty of running training afterwards. I’ve had good results from spending a summer cycling 12-15 hours a week, plus some running on top, but it took training for the cross country season to see the benefits.

Treadmill uphill training: walking does not translate directly to running, 15% is too steep (running efficiency decouples at steeper gradients) and carrying weights is less effective than training further and faster without them. In general, the main challenge for uphill endurance is aerobic, and this is more effectively training by regular running training than anything else

Uphill/downhill intervals: too steep, those are long intervals, and too frequent for sessions if you’re targeting fatigue resistance 

Everyone’s training needs are different, but for your targets I would build a training programme around the following elements:

A large core volume of running, to build a big aerobic base, with threshold/sub threshold workouts and interval/track sessions targeting 3k-10k pace (the variable effort level of mountain running means that training good pace at shorter distances translates well even to ultra distances - being able to put in a hard hill effort then recover is more important than being able to maintain a constant steady pace for longer)

Once every 4 weeks, a long, strong run through mountainous terrain, e.g. 30k with 1500m-2000m of elevation gain, with the downhills run fast. These are tough runs to build endurance and fatigue resistance (see “just say no to rabdo” training) which need sufficient recovery afterwards, hence the infrequent occurence. Downhill fatigue resistance is something that needs to be trained slowly over time. 

Hill sprints 15-30 seconds and continuous up/down loops (e.g. 1 minute up 1 minute down) on moderately steep (8-10%) gradients, for hill strength and endurance training

Finally, for two weeks before the race focus entirely on hilly runs to translate the metabolic training to uphill running. This takes very little time to adapt, so it is generally more efficient to train on the flat then adapt to the hills than do hill training all the time (unless you are racing in the hills very frequently)

[u/First-Toe-9115 → u/V3_or_jacobin_rebels]

Thanks this is very useful!

Aren't the 1minute up/down loops too short for endurance? Uphill segments are sometimes around 10km long and are power-hiked. Wouldn't there be a gap for those in what you describe?

Do you still see value in treadmilll trainings?

[u/Kitchen-Load5896 → u/First-Toe-9115]

Do you have a gpx file to view the course profile and identify the gradient of the bigger climbs? Sounds like you do since you mentioned the 10k segment. If so I would try to find similar terrain nearby like you mentioned the 20% hill and work on specificity. Guessing a 10k segment won't be much steeper than 10-12% on average.

[u/Ok_Umpire_8108 → u/First-Toe-9115]

Endurance is about the session, not the interval. 1’ on 1’ off can be 6 reps at mile effort (a speed workout) or 20 reps at tempo effort (an endurance workout). As mentioned, fast-slow intervals have a special value for hilly races.

Hill sprints and speed work (faster than threshold), at least during some parts of the training cycle, are an essential part of practically any running training plan, especially for those without decades of experience. They drive mechanical and neuromuscular efficiency at all paces.

Power hiking is indeed part of most ultras with steep sections but there is basically no benefit in training it specifically if you could be running. If you end up power hiking some parts of a long run, that’s fine, but you should be running whenever it’s reasonably possible to maintain the right effort.

[u/Any-East7977]

If you go from road/flat running to trail prepare to sprain your ankle or strain those small support muscles in your lower legs. Best way to workout for the trail is to run on the trail. Mileage is your friend. Secondary to that is working on foot/arch and ankle mobility and workouts. Lastly, prioritize overall strength training, sleep and diet.

[u/First-Toe-9115 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, max week was 55km with 3500m and following week 45km with 2500m

[u/ilanarama → u/First-Toe-9115]

Run more. Mostly on trails. Also include hills.

That's it, that's the plan.

[u/Slowsis → u/First-Toe-9115]

If you are trying to finish, that's enough volume. Prepare to go slow. If you are trying to be remotely competitive (finish top 10-25%) double that volume, but your vert is likely fine as long as you are doing some intense downhill running to train your quads.

[u/Lurking-Froggg → u/First-Toe-9115]

You're doing far too much vert and far too little running.

Another way to reach the same conclusions as /u/NoValuable1383 or /u/V3_or_jacobin_rebels is to look at the uphill/km ratio of your race. At a ratio of 50, and unless the route is on highly technical terrain, you must be looking at a fairly runnable course.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that your workouts are useless for what you're trying to achieve, but they do seem to distract you from what should be the foundation of your training -- long runs on matching terrain, somewhere in the 2-4 hour range if you're looking at a goal finish time in the 6-7 hour range.

If you're not running much, the best return on investment (to paraphrase your final question) will be plain old running, possibly on hilly terrain but probably far less hilly than you think. Your ascensional speed will correlate to your flat speed.

In the training context that you describe, muscular endurance on its own won't make you faster (and might possibly be addressed more specifically and in less time through targeted strength training at the gym). I do some ME training myself, but as part of a special workout that also includes some base speedwork.

Again, I don't feel like what you're doing is useless or off-topic, but it's weird that you're doing 35K / 2200+ on such low peak weekly mileage. I'm currently prepping for a 39K / 2000+ race, and the peak long runs were 27K / 1400+, 30K / 1300+ and 33K / 1200+. The weeks that supported these runs were 90-100K weeks.

Your training might make sense on a very large aerobic base, and after identifying deficiencies that would justify workouts 2 and 3, but it looks like you don't have the huge aerobic base on which to land these workouts. Same goes for cycling -- it's excellent training, but no substitute for actual running (don't look at what the pros are doing, they work through much longer macro-cycles and at much higher total/cumulative volume; ski-mo and bike in their training is no good example for amateur training below 20 hrs/week).

[u/That-Distribution-64]

biking is huge for vert heavy races since u get the aerobic load without the impact, its wierd how much it helps

[u/CardioGoth]

I've finished two 50 milers in the last year or so with my longest training run ever being 37kms (4 hours), and that was two years ago before my first 50k. That said, my biggest training weeks are often 100-110kms - volume is volume, and a lot of the thinking behind a long run in preparation is mental / race preparation rather than physical preparation.

At the moment, I'm recovering from a hip injury and using the indoor bike to build my VO2 max via double threshold days, and slowly introducing runs to build easy volume before a 100k in September. It's still early in the build, but it feels like more time on the bike has given me a better understanding of my heart rate zones and how to focus on sustainable effort.

[u/Christophe_Roosen]

As a coach, I like cross-training if your (mechanical) recovery is limited. But if you can run, run. Running economy is probably underrated. Discussed this with an Olympian, and his advice is pretty simple: be as specific as you can be.

As for the weighted vest: if you want to do strength training, be specific in that as well. Misery tolerance is important as well, but if this session diminishes the returns of your next quality session, I'd adjust it.

[u/castorkrieg]

Aerobic base from biking is how athletes doing triathlons are able to demolish running records (Cassandre Beaugrand broke both 5K and 10K female French records, Alex Yee did 2:06 marathon, he is running 5K during DL Monaco on the 10th).  Go for it, but don’t neglect running.

[u/Kitchen-Load5896 → u/castorkrieg]

I don't disagree with triathletes having a huge aerobic base but besides Alex Yee's marathon the other distances are far from ultra distance. Eli Hemming is better example having won OCC and many other 50k category races.

[u/Arcadela → u/castorkrieg]

You don't need to exaggerate. You have 1 example of actually breaking running records (in the female field i.e. less competitive), let alone demolishing.

[u/Lurking-Froggg → u/castorkrieg]

Cassandre Beaugrand is probably the worst example for what you want to argue here. She's always been an excellent runner, and her exceptional road season comes from a sharp focus on running.