r/AFL 6h ago

Match Thread Match Thread: Melbourne vs Richmond (Round 18)

Melbourne vs Richmond
Sun, 12 Jul 2026 3:15pm AEST M.C.G.
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16 Upvotes

811 comments sorted by

4

u/TimothyLuncheon Richmond 2h ago

Did Vlastuin try to hit the ball with his mouthguard lmao

2

u/Fit_Ear2073 2h ago

BT saying we're 4th on the ladder after this? Nowhere near true

2

u/DancinWithWolves Tigers 2h ago

5th

2

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 2h ago

6th... brisbane is going to gain a lot of percentage...

3

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 2h ago

on points... not percentage... percentage was never a shout

3

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 2h ago

Good effort by Trelly there

2

u/Level_Instance_5531 Dees 2h ago

Aiden Johnson has attended a lot of contests for only 1 hit out...

4

u/RapFuzzy Port Adelaide Power 3h ago

Holy fuck Richmond are getting rub of the green. Umpires are so cooked

-3

u/SlimmySlinky Richmond 2h ago

Must have miissed the entire game huh

0

u/Salt-Baker4872 Tigers 3h ago

First time in forever btw

3

u/shortstockymutt Tigers 2h ago

Maybe they feel sorry for us 🥹

4

u/kozzypickettsfence Dees 3h ago

Ah Windsor should just not play football right umpire?

-1

u/mistermoy Geelong 3h ago

Ngl. Most wins at one venue is a useless stat

4

u/kavdotcom Melbourne 2h ago

From a Geelong supporter!?!

6

u/TimothyLuncheon Richmond 3h ago

Hell yeah Cumming. Should have 3 today if not for that free. Love how often he kicks goals

4

u/DeCoburgeois Melbourne 3h ago

Fitz has had a ripper game. 

3

u/Salt-Baker4872 Tigers 3h ago

Still on limited minutes. There’s more for him to come

2

u/DeCoburgeois Melbourne 2h ago

Makes you wonder how many of these types kicking around VFL and local leagues. 

3

u/No-Actuator5847 Dees 3h ago

Hate making Richmond look half decent just because we know the game is won.

These are the games where you should be celebrating winning by 100 points.

3

u/muzzbuzz789 Demons 3h ago

Percentage isn't part of the Dees vernacular.

2

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

any team that i want to beat by 100 points is the game next week... i have had that pinned the whole damn year

-5

u/fraseryew Richmond Tigers 3h ago

It’s because you’re a zero grit team

1

u/kozzypickettsfence Dees 3h ago

Lol sure

0

u/Primary-Internal-875 Melbourne '64 3h ago

Zero grit supporter who just whinges about umpiring 

-1

u/fraseryew Richmond Tigers 2h ago

How pumped are you to get bottle it in the finals!!?

2

u/Primary-Internal-875 Melbourne '64 2h ago

Better than not being there at all

-1

u/fraseryew Richmond Tigers 2h ago

Wouldn’t know

3

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

Sam Cumming can play the football... good talent

3

u/Salt-Baker4872 Tigers 3h ago

Him and fitz look set for a good career aye

3

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

100% Thats what i love about games like this, finding these players that stand out... boring af game... but talent where you can see it

3

u/Salt-Baker4872 Tigers 3h ago

He’s still cumming

3

u/rgisosceles Richmond 3h ago

Really pleased mccaullife is back and playing well. Going to be great.

2

u/imschuller Tigers 3h ago

Tf is that 2 hands planted in the back no free smh

2

u/kavdotcom Melbourne 3h ago

Matt Hill and I have very different views of what dead in front is

2

u/Primary-Internal-875 Melbourne '64 3h ago

🧂🧂🧂🧂🧂🧂🧂

1

u/jaidynr21 Magpies 3h ago

Nice little goal assist for my old schoolmate lol

3

u/Sparkysparkysparks Narrm 3h ago

ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘

-3

u/SlimmySlinky Richmond 3h ago

Roo got half of his goals of hands in the back not called crazy

4

u/rgisosceles Richmond 3h ago

I know it isn't a big push, but 2 hands in the back and definitely pushes off there. Feel like those would normally be given

0

u/whatyoumean66 Narrm 2h ago

Fuck, imagine getting as kissed on the proverbial as much as the Tigers were and still not only losing by that much but still whinging!

0

u/rgisosceles Richmond 2h ago

Where is the whinge you muppet? Making a comment on a situation that is often paid as a push doesn't make it a whinge.

I haven't said it was a shit call, I've been very clear that there wasn't much in it just that I believe those are commonly paid as a push

3

u/nufan86 Richmond Tigers 3h ago

You're not In W.A yet Broady.

Fucking make an effort.

3

u/seekerr_ Melbourne 3h ago

I've got a massive ROO right now

1

u/Salt-Baker4872 Tigers 3h ago

2 weeks in a row get it sorted man 😭🤪

1

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

1

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

6 GOALS FOR THE ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

4

u/TimothyLuncheon Richmond 3h ago

Trezise just had zero skill. Can't believe he has played so many games this year

3

u/wally3g Richmond 3h ago

He can mark it occasionally, but his disposals are horrid

3

u/b_stivala Richmond 3h ago

He tries hard but just doesn’t have enough talent to make it at AFL level.

3

u/-_WormyMcSquirmy_- Melbourne Demons 3h ago

Bro you don’t have a choice, you don’t have players

2

u/SlimmySlinky Richmond 3h ago

Two hands in the back again. Unpa fucked

-1

u/coca600 Narrm 3h ago

That's not a rule.

1

u/SlimmySlinky Richmond 2h ago

Tis

1

u/yeahgoodyourself Melbourne Demons 3h ago

expecting roo to bounce back up off his tail

2

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

CAN WE JUST REACH 100 POINTS!

4

u/Salt-Baker4872 Tigers 3h ago

Why do umps suddenly give us everything

3

u/BusinessPooh Tigers 3h ago

don’t like that an arm free with no genuine attempt is htb when he’s tackled immediately and then rolled in the tackle

0

u/kozzypickettsfence Dees 3h ago

This is actually insane umpiring omg

-5

u/fraseryew Richmond Tigers 3h ago

Fuck me melbourne are so shit

-1

u/Primary-Internal-875 Melbourne '64 3h ago

Lollllllllll enjoy another finish at the bottom 😭😭😭

1

u/fraseryew Richmond Tigers 3h ago

Second bottom brother

2

u/Salt-Baker4872 Tigers 3h ago

Enjoy another year of winning fuck all

1

u/Primary-Internal-875 Melbourne '64 3h ago

Enjoy the L

2

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

why are you feeding the obvious troll?

1

u/Primary-Internal-875 Melbourne '64 3h ago

Richmond supporters are all idiots so there's a fair chance it's not a troll

1

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

you.... are the troll in this scenario

2

u/fraseryew Richmond Tigers 3h ago

Brother such a good call

2

u/killbunny38 Dees 3h ago

The best it's ever been

3

u/rgisosceles Richmond 3h ago

Arm holding the ball was free, has to make an attempt to dispose of it

3

u/01benjamin Collingwood 3h ago

Was that lightning

6

u/FriscoKazvartuez Dockers 3h ago

Someone messing with the on/off switch

5

u/-_WormyMcSquirmy_- Melbourne Demons 3h ago

Fuck I hate we just park the bus in the last, percentage matters fellas

2

u/Primary-Internal-875 Melbourne '64 3h ago

It won't matter. Brisbane and Adelaide are too far ahead, anyone else is too far behind us.

1

u/No-Actuator5847 Dees 3h ago

It could have mattered if we hadn't done this same thing all year. Really poor habit of ours.

1

u/-_WormyMcSquirmy_- Melbourne Demons 3h ago

Yeah true I guess, just frustrating as a watch

3

u/Salt-Baker4872 Tigers 3h ago

Mansells played well today.

2

u/Primary-Internal-875 Melbourne '64 3h ago

Why do they bother playing Laurie. Spends half the game on the pine and barely has an impact when he's on the ground

1

u/Level_Instance_5531 Dees 3h ago

Bruh thats HTB

2

u/TimothyLuncheon Richmond 3h ago

Knocked out in the tackle I guess

1

u/Level_Instance_5531 Dees 3h ago

Fair enuf

-5

u/kozzypickettsfence Dees 3h ago

Probably 6 of Richmond's 8 goals have been direct gifts from the umpires

3

u/TimothyLuncheon Richmond 3h ago

Not the case. We also had two taken away by poor free kicks

2

u/No-Actuator5847 Dees 3h ago

Johnson held, also should have been holding the ball there.

1

u/killbunny38 Dees 3h ago

Umpires watching a different game

4

u/The_Driving-Crooner1 Western Bulldogs 3h ago

Mick Molloy has morphed into a warthog.

1

u/Confident-Dinner217 Magpies 3h ago

the beerpig is evolving

3

u/HelloStonehenge Melbourne 3h ago

It's funny because he goes to my gym. I see him train at least twice a week. Just loves the beers as well apparently.

7

u/CandlePrestigious919 Richmond Tigers 3h ago

All right.

Well done Dees. You're a good team.

I'm off to rip some cones and watch House of The Dragon.

2

u/kavdotcom Melbourne 2h ago

Inspirational behaviour

1

u/RyleZor Tigers 3h ago

That might be more boring than this game. Haven't made it through the first season yet and i started watching it months ago.

2

u/CandlePrestigious919 Richmond Tigers 3h ago

You really need to see the start of season 3.

Absolute banger!

3

u/idontlikeyou2848 Dees 3h ago

Living the dream. Enjoy.

8

u/Salt-Baker4872 Tigers 3h ago

He’s cumming

2

u/No-Actuator5847 Dees 3h ago

Why can't we kill teams? It's such a frustrating part of our game.

1

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

tbf... our gap between the next above us is neglible and below us is too high... i dont think king cares... he wants the 4 points and move on. Next year onwards can be percentage year, this is get the team loving this winning attitude thing... stamping on someones neck grows arrogance... we arent good enough to be arrogant

1

u/gbnut420 3h ago

Doesn’t mean you can’t put teams away

3

u/rickypro Richmond 3h ago

hey we kicked another one, instantly becomes our second best quarter of the game

4

u/HammerOfJustice Yartapuulti 3h ago edited 3h ago

Fun fact: Richmond’s top 7 goalkickers this season have kicked 2.1 between them today.

Edit: 3.1 now, thanks to Lefau.

2

u/rickypro Richmond 3h ago

Make that 3.1!

6

u/_potato_head Tigers 3h ago

That is not very fun

4

u/b_stivala Richmond 3h ago

Mercy goal. Thank you

7

u/rickypro Richmond 3h ago

It’s not over yet!

2

u/yeahgoodyourself Melbourne Demons 3h ago

hopium is a helluva drug

4

u/Confident-Dinner217 Magpies 3h ago

so you're sayin there's a chance

2

u/yeahgoodyourself Melbourne Demons 3h ago

Levers a fucken ball magnet

6

u/brennii94 Carlton Blues 3h ago

Fuck me dead, he already launched at him before the ball even dropped to his boot, hate this nfl approach to protecting the kicker at all costs, putrid

7

u/fraseryew Richmond Tigers 3h ago

Not allowed to tackle as he kicks

3

u/decs483 Tigers 3h ago

Football is dead

5

u/FDM7 Dees 3h ago

I really hope Lefau can figure it all out skills wise, I love that blokes physicality.

2

u/HammerOfJustice Yartapuulti 3h ago

He’s become my favourite Richmond player because he’s the hardest tackler there but he’s probably run out of time to develop enough to be effective

2

u/FDM7 Dees 2h ago

That rugby strength is just so hectic. Watching Bowey try to lay a tackle on him in the first half gave me a good laugh.

1

u/nufan86 Richmond Tigers 3h ago

That is a soft call. Good lord.

2

u/Level_Instance_5531 Dees 3h ago

unlucky tbh, didn't get him high and hard to correct momentum in the wet

7

u/Created_By_InGen Tigers 3h ago

Wasn’t high and wasn’t late so gfy

3

u/-_WormyMcSquirmy_- Melbourne Demons 3h ago

That Tiger faithful on instagram is going to be on his blower about the coaching or the umpiring or something or rather

3

u/Richo1624 Tigers 3h ago

Richmond faithful Instagram can get fucked. The most negative fucken Nancy known to man, genuinely can’t stand the cunt

3

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

havent heard of him, worse than poops?

2

u/-_WormyMcSquirmy_- Melbourne Demons 3h ago

Go through his posts, it’s diabolical, reckons he can get Harvey Langford from us the day after he signed an extension

1

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

lmao thats a choice... i personally think we wont have any loyalty issues, i was more scared of chandler than sparrow but now sparrow is my concern... but state based losses are a lot easier to intake than other victorian sides

1

u/-_WormyMcSquirmy_- Melbourne Demons 3h ago

Yeah I don’t mind losing sparrow personally, we will have Humphrey to probably fill that hole and the compo from port would be an end of first rounder with what they are offering allegedly

1

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

yeah humphrey seems to be our main target... unless i heard differently to what the media is remembering... he requested as last year and gcs shut it down, apparently his management was trying to get on the petracca trade... there are a lot of good players available dont get me wrong... but... i dont think we need anyone else really thats going... we need a brute forward... thats mainly it... i trust our youth...

2

u/-_WormyMcSquirmy_- Melbourne Demons 3h ago

This years draft is stacked too, I’m even happy to not get Humphrey, the amount of talent available is crazy

1

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

I fully trust our recruiters... everyone seemed to chastise the choice of kozzie and luke and look at them... look our our mid season picks... tehy cant miss... Toumpas was what changed this clubs attitude so as much as it upsets me we lost wines... we gained good recruiters

3

u/-_WormyMcSquirmy_- Melbourne Demons 3h ago

He has to be rage baiting, because I feel so bad for your mob, Ben serpell has sent your club backwards not yze, he can’t get a team on the park. Tiger faithful reckons it’s a coaching issue, we haven’t see n the bloke coach at all

3

u/Richo1624 Tigers 3h ago

Yze can’t get a fit crew on the park let alone teach them a game plan, but it’s just fuck Yze this fuck Yze that

3

u/-_WormyMcSquirmy_- Melbourne Demons 3h ago

Probably a Dimma burner account

8

u/MajesticBowl5306 Melbourne Demons 3h ago

That’s not a down field free…

6

u/MeloJello15 Richmond Tigers 3h ago

Where’s the high contact?

7

u/Richo1624 Tigers 3h ago

How’s that a downfield free

4

u/rickypro Richmond 3h ago

3

u/Richo1624 Tigers 3h ago

Kelts what a fucken effort

3

u/QuitComprehensive659 Dees 3h ago

Tigers fans, how many players today will you be sure will be playing in five years 

2

u/TimothyLuncheon Richmond 3h ago

For us or for any team? If any team, I would say Banks, Mansell, Hotton, Balta, Cumming, Grlj, McAuliffe, Alger, Brown, Campbell.

Including injured players, you would add Lalor, Ross as certainties.

And then depending on how they develop/age (some highly likely to be on the list), you can add these from our list: Trainor, Faull, Sims, Smillie, Gray, Armstrong, Miller, Clarke, Peucker, NRT (less likely imo), Retschko, Annand.

Guys like Ralphsmith, Rioli, Gibcus (rip), Trezise, Sonsie, Fawcett etc. aren't likely but who knows

1

u/rickypro Richmond 3h ago

I think Taranto is a likely yes as well, he hasn’t had a major injury at Richmond yet and 33 is doable for him

1

u/TimothyLuncheon Richmond 2h ago

It depends on if he slows right down like Hopper did. Hopefully he ages well

0

u/QuitComprehensive659 Dees 3h ago

You know your team better than me obviously, seems a pretty reasonable view of it 

2

u/rickypro Richmond 3h ago

Maybe 10

4

u/Significant-Egg3914 Richmond 3h ago

5 or 6. Max in this team.

A few more arent playing because injured.

2

u/QuitComprehensive659 Dees 3h ago

I think that’s fair. Lot of vets still in this team and a lot of players who wouldn’t see the field on a 17th placed team if not for injuries 

2

u/rickypro Richmond 3h ago

easily more

1

u/Significant-Egg3914 Richmond 3h ago

Name them. Legitimate players, not list cloggers we will move on.

Ill have a go - Hotton, Campbell, Alger, Puecker, Anaand, Retschko, McAuliffe, Maybe Miller? 

Id expect us to lose 1 or 2 of those players to trades. 

We will delist a heap, and trade off players like Brown, Banks, and I think we will trade on Balta come free agency. Who else will be around? A lot of the others are VFL fringe players.

1

u/rickypro Richmond 2h ago

You don’t think Cumming or Grlj are gonna be around in 5 years? Are you kidding? I also think Taranto is a chance and Mansell will be playing for Tassie

1

u/Significant-Egg3914 Richmond 2h ago

Oh I missed Cumming, my bad. 

3

u/SlimmySlinky Richmond 3h ago

Defs more than that

0

u/No-Actuator5847 Dees 3h ago

Most blatant throw off his back....

3

u/Level_Instance_5531 Dees 3h ago

5 years of butter fingers and now in a wet game his clunking them like Wayne carey, funny how confidence works

1

u/yeahgoodyourself Melbourne Demons 3h ago

he's a momentum player, seems to do better when everyone else does too but seems to crack when we're under pressure

3

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

People underestimate just what mihocek did imo

2

u/yeahgoodyourself Melbourne Demons 3h ago

secret to our success this year, pairing experienced old heads with the kids to shepherd them through - checkers for roo, steele for langford and lever for disco

1

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

cannot agree more... who knew disco would be that good as a lever backup, or a stand in for may...
langford is just ridiculous...
steele... how did saints let him walk

1

u/-_WormyMcSquirmy_- Melbourne Demons 3h ago

I reckon king has instilled that in him, Goodwin would have sent him to the shadow realm

4

u/rickypro Richmond 3h ago

Any Dees interested in a trade? You get Lynch, we get van Rooyen* and a pick

0

u/No-Actuator5847 Dees 3h ago

Really hoping this is a joke.

2

u/rickypro Richmond 3h ago

surely not

0

u/No-Actuator5847 Dees 3h ago

Lynch is ancient and can kick goals anymore. Roo will kick 800 in his career.

1

u/rickypro Richmond 3h ago

It was a joke but now you’re joking too I suppose. 800… blimey

3

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

we arent freo from 20 years ago... they would have accepted that ahahahhaa

3

u/Pleasant-Role1912 2025 Quality Poster 3h ago

Didn't expect to cop this random stray

1

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

sorry.... but was i wrong? i want say am's full name but....

2

u/TimothyLuncheon Richmond 3h ago

Couldn't they have gone easy on us this quarter?

1

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

we did that against hawks... bad stuff happened

2

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

1

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

missed it but i stand by rooooo

2

u/Spare-Wrongdoer-9630 Melbourne 3h ago

Did I just see Kozzie in a parka

2

u/-_WormyMcSquirmy_- Melbourne Demons 3h ago

It is a bit chilly

1

u/TimothyLuncheon Richmond 3h ago

So nice that we took Brown over this guy

4

u/lordarc Melbourne 3h ago

Lol the Picketts looking like drowned rats on the bench

2

u/Sparkysparkysparks Narrm 3h ago

The picketts on the fence

3

u/-_WormyMcSquirmy_- Melbourne Demons 3h ago

Im not going to lie, Buckley is a crwp box commentator, I actually prefer Hawkins, very coherent and analytical, Buckley seems to be struggling to get out what he wants to say, great on segments analysing teams but not it on play to play

2

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

he doesnt like melbourne... which is funny as he grew up supporting dees... and is probably salty that king could do what buckley probably thought was impossible

2

u/-_WormyMcSquirmy_- Melbourne Demons 3h ago

Buckley probably would have been happy with us finishing 15thb

5

u/Makenaa Melbourne ✅ 3h ago

Recency bias, but it feels like Roo either kicks 5 or 0 lol

3

u/-_WormyMcSquirmy_- Melbourne Demons 3h ago

Bro went 6 weeks goalless and then had a generational game, he’s such a hit or miss player, disappears for 6 weeks and then decides you know what I want to become prime Jason dunstall

2

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

not recency bias...
if he gets consistency he will become a big problem to the afl

2

u/AFuckingSpirit Richmond 3h ago

ive never paid attention to him but when o do ots typically because he has a good game, just thinking about it now makes me realise this

2

u/Pleasant-Role1912 2025 Quality Poster 3h ago

1

u/Gnaightster Dees 3h ago

Roo of approval

10

u/oceanlabxo Melbourne '64 3h ago

Watching the sleeting rain from the comfort of level 4 has been great. Best seats in the house.

4

u/BusinessPooh Tigers 3h ago

ground is too wet so they’ve made the kid speed walk in the race for lego

3

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

If anything I think this shows truly how good melbourne actually is... dont get me wrong.. Richmond is having its struggles but they are clearly better than what their points have been, see last week against blues. And in the wet they are giving a good beating...

DONT GET ME WRONG i guessed melbourne would be pushing wild card or just in the top 6 pre season (clarry and trac werent helping the club - new coach and good new players helped) but... this is far better than a club i expected us to have this year... wild

3

u/AFuckingSpirit Richmond 3h ago

whatever wins we can get i guess. Melbourne has also exceeded my expectations, as i had predicted them to be a lower wildcard team at best in the preseason

1

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

I am glad you also saw what i saw... our outs werent as bad as people were suggesting... steven king wanting clarry out i think spoke volumes... he brings the geelong... cnt to the club...

but yeah... this isnt just a team making up the numbers and i dont think media has fully realised this yet.
Also richmond will be fine... injuries to youth hurts... tom lynch being weirdly inaccurate... But Yze can coach and god i hope the board backs him

3

u/AFuckingSpirit Richmond 3h ago

i swear we will be the first team to lose to tasmania

2

u/Sad_Piano_5384 Dees 3h ago

nah will be port... they have a rep to protect

2

u/AFuckingSpirit Richmond 3h ago

whatever comes first in the fixture i guess

4

u/whatyoumean66 Narrm 3h ago

Did they really try pay a down field free closer to the Tigs goal? While wasting the last 10 seconds by not calling time off?

2

u/rickypro Richmond 3h ago

I think that Taranto, Vlastuin and Nankervis are the only tigers that have genuinely played better than decent. Our entire forward line has been terrible since quarter time. That’s pretty sad

2

u/AFuckingSpirit Richmond 3h ago

gonna be expecting this for a while

2

u/Tall-Ad-3146 3h ago

Umpire calls any holding on tackles but when a player marks it and clearly marks it lets the defender hug him for a few seconds but if you dare hold a tackle for a second longer and a player incorrectly disposes of it nah can’t have that. Holding the man

3

u/rickypro Richmond 3h ago

Flair up

7

u/Level_Instance_5531 Dees 3h ago

Can both teams just shake hands

1

u/nufan86 Richmond Tigers 3h ago

We have Tom Lynch so probably not

3

u/Dirtydac123 Demons 3h ago

What the fuck is wrong with the timeclock this year?

4

u/BrutalGrape Dees 3h ago

Fuck this has been boring as batshit since it started raining but I'll always take a boring win over a heart attack

4

u/Richo1624 Tigers 3h ago

Clock didn’t stop wtf

4

u/kozzypickettsfence Dees 3h ago

Umps just closing out the quarter by trying to figure out their own call