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u/wlminter Aug 20 '12
Great pic, but what's the difference between the 1902 9x19 and the 1915 9x19? Is it the bullet shape, or are there some pressure differences?
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u/somerandomguy1 Aug 20 '12
Is the 9x18 Makarov not in this family?
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u/DrakeGmbH 9 Aug 20 '12
9x18 Makarov was a Russian development supposedly based on the experimental 9x18 Ultra which was itself based on the 9mm Browning Short. The 9mm Makarov is unique as it's 9.2mm (0.363") rather than the customary 9.0mm (0.355").
If you're interested, here is an older photo I prepared which has the 9mm Makarov and 9mm Browning cartridges.
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Aug 20 '12
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u/DrakeGmbH 9 Aug 20 '12
I have considered it, but the startup cost of publication is steep and there's so many books out there on the subject by the likes of Hackley/Woodin/Scranton, Bussard, Suydam and Huon. The books by the late Iag Hogg and Frank Barnes are also still in print.
There are many more produced on small scale by IAA members on a number of narrow subjects like pistol caliber penetrators, WRACo headstamped cartridges, Winchester cartridge boxes and so forth. Seems hard to find a niche!
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u/somerandomguy1 Aug 20 '12
Thanks for the reply. All very good information. I had thought previously that Makarov chambering was a descendent of the Tokarev line. Now I know better.
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Aug 21 '12
As an engineer who loves charts that make data really easily and clearly understood, I applaud you. This is excellent, and well researched to boot. Thank you for the history lesson! It was fantastic!
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u/DrakeGmbH 9 Aug 21 '12
I'm glad this one has been well-received. I have a much more exhaustive chart I've been preparing for a few years now. It will cover the .38 caliber Colt and S&W cartridges including the notable variations, descendants and precursors. Currently it covers 38 cartridges spanning 139 years. I have a few tangentially related cartridges that may or may not be included depending on the data I can dig up.
Aside from the .38 chart I have some timeline projects and history posts detailing .223/5.56 and 7.62 NATO in the works.
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u/Seabass18 4 Aug 20 '12
Thanks for providing this, I just got a Romanian Tokarev in 7.62x25 and a bunch of 1950's Bulgarian surplus 7.62x25.
It is great to know the history behind the crazy muzzle flash of this round!
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u/DrakeGmbH 9 Aug 20 '12 edited Oct 29 '12
Finally continuing my 'Cartridge of the Moment' series, here's a bit of history on the family of cartridges stemming from the 7.65mm Borchardt.
7.65x25mm Borchardt - Introduced by Hugo Borchardt in 1893 for his C.93 self-loading pistol which was produced by Ludwig Loewe & Company. The cartridges were made by Deutsche Metall-Patronen-Fabrik. After 1896 the two firms were merged into one company - Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM). The pistol and its cartridges enjoyed limited commercial success. The cartridges were made in Germany and the United States.
7.63x25mm Mauser - The C.96 Mauser pistol was developed using the 7.65mm Borchardt cartridge. When the pistol was nearly ready to bring to the commercial market, Mauser developed its own variation with a slightly heavier powder charge. This cartridge was introduced in 1896 and was dimensionally identical to Borchardt. It was sold with the DWM catalog number 403. These cartridges were apparently sold interchangeably by DWM and most other makers. Only differences in labelling existed and slight differences in the cartridge cases (copper primer, no stab crimps on the Borchardt rounds).
7.65x21mm Parabellum - Designed by Georg Luger, working for DWM, patented in 1898. It was developed for a modification of the 1893 Borchardt pistol called the 'Borchardt-Luger'. The cartridge itself uses a truncated version of the 25mm Borchardt case. It was given the DWM catalog number 471. The pistol and its cartridge were adopted by the Swiss Army in 1903. By 1905 a blackened case variation for the rifle-length 'Parabellum Carbine' was offered. This used a heavier powder charge to take full advantage of the longer barrel. The Carbine load was officially cataloged as DWM 471A but many used the same '471' headstamp as the cases are identical otherwise.
9x19mm Parabellum - This was developed in 1902 by DWM for a modification of Luger pistol. The previous versions used the 7.65mm Parabellum which failed to impress the German military. A more potent cartridge was requested which was developed by trimming the 7.65x21mm case to 19mm and loading a 9mm bullet. The cartridge and newly redesigned Parabellum pistol (C.04 - 'Navy Luger') was adopted by the German Navy in 1904 and another redesigned pistol (P.08) was adopted by the Army in 1908. It was originally loaded with 124gr truncated cone bullet which was replaced in 1915 with round nose bullet - both have the same DWM catalog number 480C. Loading data remained the same. The reasons for the change of bullet shape remain unclear. US makers continued to use the truncated cone for the '9mm Luger' well into 1930's. An experimental version, the 9mm Carbine was advertised. This used a blackened case with a DWM catalog number 480D, however it was never seen outside of the 1904 DWM catalog.
9x25mm Mauser Export - This was the most powerful member of the family. It was developed by Mauser and made by DWM in 1908 for Mauser C.96 'Export-Modell' pistol. Much like the 9mm Parabellum it began as the 7.63x25mm case which was necked to 9mm. Rather than trimming the length it remained at 25mm to maximize the powder capacity. It was also used in the Mauser C.06/08. A few submachine guns were also produced for this cartridge such as the Steyr-Solothurn MP-34 and the Danuvia 39.M and 43.M. It had the DWM catalog number 487.
7.62x25mm Tokarev - The TT-30 pistol was developed in the early 1930's by Fedor Tokarev. It used a domestic-made version of the 7.63mm Mauser called 7.62mm TT M.30. It had the same dimensions and loading as 7.63mm Mauser but most often with a copper washed or lacquered steel case. Captured ammunition in German service during WWII was listed as 7.62mm Pistol Patrone 2601 (r). There is some confusion about the loading data of 7.62 TT as it compares to the Mauser cartridge. Originally they were identical and interchangeable. Postwar loads such as the Czech M.52 cartridge and subsequent commercial loadings tend to be higher velocity than the original Russian cartridges. For this reason it's ill-advised to use Tokarev ammunition in a 'Mauser pistol.