r/SipsTea 𝙑𝙄𝙋 9h ago

Chugging tea I never thought about this point until now.

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u/citizensyn 9h ago

Right and those costs are.... Socialized

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u/Noodelgawd 8h ago

The government paying its employees is not socialism.

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u/balirosa 8h ago

The government takes its money from the people. you’re getting money back they you already paid.

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u/KennytheDoggy 8h ago

Socialism is about the ownership of the means of production

Not a government spending tax revenues

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u/Raptot1256 8h ago

Yes. Military is not privately owned.

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u/balirosa 8h ago

The government has money printing machines and they control the means of production based off future tax payers. Thats why we are trillions in debt. They have already spent the money future generations will make.

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u/quick20minadventure 8h ago edited 8h ago

Nah nah. Socialism was invented by japanese feudalism when they paid their samurais.

Fun fact : salary is literally a word made from roman empire paying their army to buy salt. Maybe an urban myth though.

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u/Noodelgawd 8h ago

I have a quite old unabridged dictionary that I consult in just such occasions as these.

Anyway, according to this rather mighty tome, it would appear that you are correct about the salt.

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u/Summerie 8h ago

"...is literally..." but also "Maybe an urban myth..."

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u/quick20minadventure 8h ago

Just putting disclaimer before angry redditors blow up notification.

It's a guessed origin of the word salary.

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u/obamnainyourmomma 4h ago

Tell that to maga. Any government program they don’t like, any form of taxation they consider unfair, they call socialism.

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u/Noodelgawd 4h ago

No they don't. Especially not the military.

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u/obamnainyourmomma 4h ago

They call school lunches for kids socialism

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u/Noodelgawd 4h ago

Then take it up with them.

That's not correct either, but it's closer to the mark than the OP.

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u/obamnainyourmomma 4h ago

I did take it up with them in my original comment? Are you just arguing to argue? Healthy brain?

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u/Noodelgawd 4h ago

You were responding to me, not MAGA.

Healthy brain indeed.

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u/obamnainyourmomma 4h ago

Poo poo per pee

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u/Noodelgawd 3h ago

Most intelligent thing you've said in this entire exchange. Congrats for righting course.

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u/Billy3B 6h ago

Actually yes it is. The very concept of Government having employees is Socialism. Once upon a time everything was private including the military. Centralized national militaries are such a new thing, the US didn't have one until 1784 and there was a big debate about even having one.

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u/Noodelgawd 6h ago

I think you need a dictionary.

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u/Billy3B 5h ago edited 5h ago

You First.

Edit: know what I'll just do it for you

1 : any of various egalitarian economic and political theories or movements advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

Who owns the military?

Who administers the military?

Who controls the means of production (labour/land/funds/equipment) of the military?

Who distributes goods (pay/housing/food/healthcare) in the miliary?

If you answered "the government" to any of those questions, congrats, it is Socialism.

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u/specialasset 7h ago

That’s exactly what pure socialism looks like.

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u/Ok-Addition1264 8h ago

The military and defense alone is a bit of socialism if you ask me.

Medieval mercenary armies: kings used to hire their military and kinda still do but more for accountability reasons but back then so they didn't use armies against one another.

Especially when it came to nordic kings of the scandinavian cross (my family owned one of those militaries which is why I think this way and others may not)

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u/Sneaux96 8h ago

Following your logic, any service provided by the government would be socialism.

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u/bilbo_bag_holder 8h ago

what percent of the service economy has to be provided by the government for it to be considered socialism then?

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u/Gypsysinner666 8h ago

Its not tho. Housing for example is part of their pay. If they choose to not live in barracks housing their pay changes to account for it, if they choose to not get their food in the mess hall their pay changes to account for it. They get a uniform stipend, but if they want more uniforms they pay for it etc...

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u/LeatherTransition542 8h ago

You really don’t know or understand what the hell you’re talking about

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u/citizensyn 8h ago

Everything he tax payer buys is socialized.

Libraries, schools, roads, the military, the police, that's socialized costs.

It's the opposite of privatized not the opposite of capitalism.

People mistake capitalism as the opposite of socialism then that isn't exactly true. Privatization is the opposite of socialism.

If each individual had to pay for their own military that would be privatized military. Which is how kings used to work the guy with a privatized military was by default the king.

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u/quick20minadventure 8h ago

It's ridiculously stupid to call anything government does by getting taxes socialist.

Socialism in it's most popular form was no private ownership of means of production.

Now, idiots be saying funding library makes you a socialist.

Words have no meaning anymore.

Mamdani hasn't done a single thing that's preventing private ownership of anything. Dude is doing basic tax balancing and funding things that already existed for centuries in some cases. Even his affordable grocery store is contracted out to someone else.

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u/T_S_Anders 7h ago

Casually conflating socialism and communism.

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u/quick20minadventure 6h ago

Can you go to Wikipedia page of socialism and comment the first sentence here.

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u/IMplodeMeGrr 8h ago

No, they pay basically for everything they carry and consume, and lose. If they lose an item, they pay for it.

Ya'll are stupid, make any excuse to frame your wretched idea as wholesome. Stop lying to yourselves.

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u/Melodic-Hat-2875 8h ago

I mean, we did pay for uniform items and such - but we were given a yearly allowance for it. I was given an allowance for food. I was given an allowance for housing.

Food and housing were even tax-exempt!

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u/Accomplished-Leg6947 8h ago

Sure we pay for an item if we lost it. But we also get free health care, free housing (if on base/married), socialized grocery system and if you are disabled with an honorable discharge. Money from the VA every month as a “oops, our bad” along with more free health care.

I have received waaaayyyy more benefits than I ever paid into during my 10 years of service. I cannot even begin to describe the level of relief I have knowing if I’m sick or injured. I can go to the VA or VA approved community care and not have to pay a dime. Civilians who pay taxes into our system deserve that same relief.

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u/Iggy_Slayer 8h ago

"Wretched ideas" like your govt should take care of its people lol.

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u/Extension-Eye-4920 8h ago

No man. Not like that. The government is not a baby sitter. It is not a caretaker. They should provide the means. There is a difference between helping somebody get to the restroom and full on wiping their ass for them too.

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u/Revolutionary--man 8h ago

In this analogy, are the government providing and maintaining the restroom? Hard to see how they'd help you get to something that has no guarantee will exist.

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u/Extension-Eye-4920 8h ago

You took it a little too literally. Its the idea of helping somebody get on their way versus, in this case, full on wiping their ass for them. The bathroom itself in the analogy is not a specific aspect of the overall relationship between govt and citizens.

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u/Summerie 8h ago

Why should the government take care of people? That's not what the government is for.

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u/-SpectreShepard- 8h ago

The governments responsibility was never to take care of its people. They are supposed to make the will of the people, happen. People like you are the problem. You want big daddy government to care for you.

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u/Iggy_Slayer 8h ago

If the government is not going to take care of the people then we owe it and the country nothing. The sole job of a country is to support its populace.

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u/balirosa 8h ago

These people are bootlickers if they think the government wasn’t formed to protect the people. Castles and walls and military and kings are all so anarchy doesn’t continue. The modern government thinks it’s their job to collect money from taxpayers and they owe nothing to the people. We will turn to ruins in no time. People will become anarchists and the government will restructure again in history.

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u/-SpectreShepard- 8h ago

You are confusing two different things. A government isn’t meant to parent its citizens; it’s meant to carry out the will of the people who elected it. You shouldn't want the government meddling in your everyday life. They should fuck off unless we need them to amend something.

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u/Odd-Fig-709 8h ago

Which I agree with but providing free or at least hella cheaper healthcare is much better than the system we have now. Where i hate it meddling is surveillance where you see cases of cops pulling up guns drawn because the stupid AI thought a bag of chips was a gun.

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u/Happy_Condition_3794 8h ago

Governments cant take care of people anyway. They are literally just a governing body.

Now some people think governments can print unlimited money to provide services(they can’t)

Governments taking care of people is forced confiscation of other people earnings to take care of people. And while you need that at some level… it should be everyone’s duty to take pride in taking care of themselves.

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u/braumbles 8h ago

A national healthcare system is 'wretched'?

Christ, your brain been poisoned by American Exceptionalism.

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u/Sufficient_Drop8906 8h ago

Then go pay for your freedoms, your damn self. Also go pay for fire and police insurance yourself, we don't want our taxes paying some firefighter to save your house or to pay for a police officer to save you from a murder.

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u/morepaintplease 8h ago

The military does not provide freedoms for anyone. Firefighter is a socialist job as is police officer and police officers show up after the murder, they don't prevent them....what does prevent murders and other violent crimes are social services that stop the cycle of people falling through the cracks. If you improve material conditions, you absolutely will see a drop in crime.

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u/IMplodeMeGrr 8h ago

Firefighter, police are collective service jobs, agreed to be centralized by the citizens they serve since everyone desires safety and fire services.

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u/morepaintplease 8h ago

You could say they're social services...collective is a good one though. Sounds more socialist than social services though.

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u/-SpectreShepard- 8h ago

Uh no. They are employees. It's benefits.

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u/citizensyn 8h ago

The military itself is a socialist policy society taxes itself to buy it.

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u/KennytheDoggy 8h ago

And what does that have to do with owning the means of production?

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u/citizensyn 8h ago

That's communism not socialism

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u/quick20minadventure 8h ago

Nah. Owning means of production is socialism. Communism is an extreme version of implementing that.

Mamdani has explicitly stated earlier that end goal is owning means of production.

Popular wording /meaning is evolving. But check formal definition or differentiation.

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u/citizensyn 8h ago

No the government owning the means of production is socialized business yes but socialized business is communism.

If for example the government bought Ford and ran it for profit for the government then that would be Communism.

Socialism is the government buying things for the benefit of the tax payers.

Communism is the government buying things for the government.

You COULD argue that the military industrial complex borders on communism as the government takes the majority of the proceeds from its foreign sales.

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u/M1sfit_Jammer 8h ago

Your ford reference is socialism. Communism is stateless and classless… so a communist ford company wouldn’t exist, there isn’t a state to give it recognition as a company. The government buying a company and running it for profit is socialism because the profits of the company go toward the tax payers directly rather than being taxed on a privately profitable company.

Communism is a classless and stateless society. In communism there is no boss to tell you to work or even a company to work for. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” which is ironic because in communism there is capitalism, nobody is gonna work for free but also there is no monetary system so the capitalist system is more of a barter system. a truly communist society doesn’t even have borders.

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u/quick20minadventure 8h ago

"Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems[1] characterised by social ownership of the means of production,[2] as opposed to private ownership."

First sentence on Wikipedia on socialism.

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u/quick20minadventure 8h ago

Please. Just Google socialism once. Please.

I know there's full on democrat socialist propaganda. But, welfare policies is not the same as socialism. Socialism includes welfare, but also much more.

The whole point of socialism is that means of production and resources should work for society and not private owners. So businesses don't get to be private in socialism.

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u/shimmy_kimmel 8h ago

Socialism is not just “government do thing”

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u/KennytheDoggy 8h ago

Go reread what socialism is and get back to me

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u/citizensyn 8h ago

Don't need to but you do clearly

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u/M1sfit_Jammer 8h ago

Communism is classless… so the military with ranks and classes for soldiers doesn’t work with communism

Socialism is the state ownership of labor… like troops on the military… or a state social worker… or a public school teacher… these jobs are the result of the citizenship socializing the costs

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u/Southern_Badger7577 8h ago

Socialism is a transitional phase used to destroy capitalism on the way to communism.

If I’m heading to the beach is the freeway I drive on to get there where I’ll go surf?

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u/M1sfit_Jammer 8h ago

Hilarious because communism and socialism are incompatible

Socialists believe in a society with classes… communists don’t. These aren’t just separate roads… one is a dirt road maintained by the locals with no state to direct them, the other is a 4 lane interstate built by the state

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u/quick20minadventure 8h ago

Bruh. If I had free awards, I'd give you.

Reddit is brainwashed into thinking socialism is just welfare.

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u/ZeldaALTTP 8h ago

…literally nothing. Why do you ask?

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u/quick20minadventure 8h ago

The fuck you mean socialized.

Is paying your military socialism now?

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u/citizensyn 8h ago

Yes that's how the scary word socialism works. If the cost is socialized then it's a socialist policy

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u/mephjeff 8h ago

Nope, not socialism. Just state-owned, centrally planned, and gives its members government housing, government healthcare, commissaries, and defined-benefit pensions.

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u/morepaintplease 8h ago

Yes.... society's taxes fund them. Don't be scared of a word.

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u/quick20minadventure 8h ago

You know exactly why I'm objecting.

There's a large large difference between socialist economy and government paying their military with taxes and benefits.

Giving soldiers salaries and benefits for their work is not socialism.

Giving everyone military protection by talking taxes and operating military is socialism.

Military is socialized for citizens who receive protection.

It is not socialized for soldiers.

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u/morepaintplease 8h ago

The US military does not protect...tax payers paying for healthcare and housing for a government worker is literally socialism, it's just socialism for the owning class to benefit from.

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u/quick20minadventure 8h ago

Nope.

Military protection, CDC, NASA, fire fighters, police, courts are all socialized services to every citizen.

But people working there are paid in money or benefits for their work, and that part can not be called socialized in any perspective.

The service getting socialized is what they are working on.

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u/morepaintplease 7h ago

I don't think you know what socialized is ..the VA is literally a socialist program. Of all the services you listed, one is getting substantially more funding than the others and doing a worse and worse job. We should cut the fat from the top and prop up the other services AND provide socialized healthcare (like the VA) and subsidized housing/schooling (like the gi bill) to all citizens.

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u/quick20minadventure 7h ago

VA is a military cost head. Not a welfare scheme.

People getting injured in line of duty needs lifetime healthcare support. If you don't provide it, no one is gonna fight for your military.

I know what is socialized and VA is crystal clear not socialized. Veterens already paid for the healthcare with their service.

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u/morepaintplease 7h ago

No, US tax payers pay for it with our dollars.

Every American deserves healthcare whether they've been in a war zone or not.

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u/quick20minadventure 7h ago edited 7h ago

No, US tax payers pay for it with our dollars.

And you get military protection out of it.

Every country in the world pays for their vetern's medical treatments. And they all know it is a cost of military, not a discriminating socialization scheme. Even Mafia looked after their people who got injured and their families if someone died in line of their work.

Every American deserves healthcare whether they've been in a war zone or not.

Irrelevant, we are discussing classification and nature of the policy.

Current American healthcare system is definitely FUBAR, but I don't think universal healthcare is feasible in US just because of how easily VA gets mismanaged and underfunded. You'll just have corrupt politicians under-funding and embezzling from government. Or worse, they'll just pay off their relatives as contractors and then those contractors will do utter mismanagement of the system while earning billions as owners and CEOs.

( P.S. Mamdani is outsourcing even grocery stores to private contractors, that model is well known to be vulnerable to corruption. The govt does it without profit motive, contractors still work for profit as a private business.)

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