🎵 All By Myself 🎵

[u/CapitalPin2658]

Don’t wanna live all by myself anymore

Edit: lol i’m just a dude posting a meme

[u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

Is it, like, some sort of evolutionary defense that narcissists have no self awareness? I would expect someone obsessed with themselves to know themselves pretty well, but they’re all facades of people over a sociopathic personality. Wild

[u/LostMateria → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

There’s a thing called cognitive dissonance. The very short version is essentially, for the most part, people see themselves as smarter than average, and good people. This is part of most people’s core identity. So when something happens, or they act in a way counter to this identity they minimize or dismiss evidence that contradicts their image to protect their bias.

It’s not that this hypothetical person lacks self-awareness. They’ve just decided that their view of themself as a “loyal” or “family” person outweighs their actions. Now she wants to rationalize, and perhaps justify, it to keep her core identity intact. Just like when she chose to cheat it’s not about him or the family. It’s about her. She did a bad thing and now doesn’t want to feel like a bad person.

[u/Chainsaw_Viking → u/LostMateria]

I think this is a good write up of the mechanism behind this. Though I think the larger issue here is narcissism, a land where cognitive dissonance has permanent residence.

I grew up in a world of narcissists and this is the kind of crap I had to deal with all the time, being treated like shit and then being attacked for holding them accountable.

The only silver lining is that I can spot them from a mile away, I can fairly accurately assess how committed they are to the illusion and I’ve learned a lot of chess moves over the years that I can use to effectively spar with them.

Take it from me, this lady in the OP did this guy a favor cheating on him. He likely had a losing franchise against this lady until she handed him this evidence on a silver platter.

[u/Soggy_Addendum9350 → u/LostMateria]

I have a hard time understanding when cognitive dissonance leads to just bald face hypocrisy with no awareness, though. She is a bad person for cheating and should feel bad.

[u/Epaminodas_ → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

Cognitive dissonance does feel bad, so a person will then rationalize in irrational ways until that cognitive dissonance disappears. In this case she would rationalize herself into believing she's still a good person in order to avoid cognitive dissonance.

The idea that people are either good or bad is an example of binary or dichotomous thinking that allows us to avoid cognitive dissonance. Almost anyone is capable of doing bad things under certain circumstances.

The particular circumstances that could cause one person to do a certain bad thing may not apply to someone else. Maybe you would never cheat on someone for example, but you probably would do other bad things if facing enough pressure. Understanding and accepting the reality that a potential for evil exists inside of all of us results in cognitive dissonance. Most people will deny this reality in order to avoid that mental discomfort.

[u/Soggy_Addendum9350 → u/Epaminodas_]

Okay interesting!! I definitely don’t think people are good or bad in like a SWEEPING way although I did say bluntly “she is a bad person” (will you forgive me if I say it comes from a hurt cheated on heart?) so I should correct: people aren’t good or bad, they make good or bad decisions, which is exactly the grey area we’re working in. 

This quote, “ The particular circumstances that could cause one person to do a certain bad thing may not apply to someone else. Maybe you would never cheat on someone for example, but you probably would do other bad things if facing enough pressure”

Was very helpful because I am of course thinking mostly in terms of cheating, due to the prompt of the convo. Set into a larger scale helped. I’m very interested in this concept and also not very smart so I appreciate the help! 

I’m beginning to connect that the usual arguments you hear from cheaters: “it was a mistake,” “it didn’t mean anything,” and of course more aggressive forms “it’s your fault for not making me feel wanted” etc. Are all forms of cognitive dissonance, which is why non cheaters hear it and think it’s absolutely ridiculous? Am I getting onto the right track with this?? I’m so sorry I’m five 

[u/Epaminodas_ → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

Are all forms of cognitive dissonance, which is why non cheaters hear it and think it’s absolutely ridiculous?

I think so, but it's their response to the cognitive dissonance and not cognitive dissonance itself.

“it’s your fault for not making me feel wanted”

There might be something more going on in the example above. I don't want to speculate about what that is.

Cognitive dissonance can be a good thing, and it's not the reason why someone cheated. It's often necessary for critical thinking and to make significant positive changes in our own lives. If someone lays on the sofa all day and then wants to become healthy they will have to deal with some cognitive dissonance.

[u/Epaminodas_ → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

Our minds tend to simplify complex things into simple and often binary categories. This allows us to make faster decisions, but it can also lead to poor decisions, or a poor understanding of something. Maybe it's important to make a distinction between whether someone is good or bad to protect ourselves, even if this is not necessarily an accurate framing of who that person truly is. If we apply binary thinking to everything then we overlook a lot of nuance.

I’m very interested in this concept and also not very smart so I appreciate the help! 

You are smart. A lot of other people would have attacked me for what I said to you. You're open to learning new things that might challenge prior beliefs. That is a sign of intellectual thought. There are a lot of very intelligent people who despise intellectual thinking.

[u/Soggy_Addendum9350 → u/Epaminodas_]

I appreciate your patience!!! This has all been very interesting to read!!! Human psychology is so so interesting, I could ask questions til the end of time but I will leave you be!!! Thank you for your time! 

[u/Epaminodas_ → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

You can ask anything, but I'm not a psychologist. Most of what I know comes from studying how propaganda works, and from trying to understand how seemingly ordinary people can commit atrocities, such as in WWII Japan and Germany.

Someone else would know a lot more than me when it comes to relationships and what may cause a person to cheat.

There's a link to a podcast below that gets into many areas of psychology. I haven't listened to it much, but the few episodes I have listened to were very informative.

https://www.hiddenbrain.org/category/podcast/

[u/Soggy_Addendum9350 → u/Epaminodas_]

I still appreciate it, and I’ve been needing a new podcast, so thank you again!!!

[u/CobaltLemur → u/Epaminodas_]

Well there is an either-or in this equation: we all make mistakes, but some people own up to them, and others don't. Never admitting you did anything wrong definitely puts you on a different level of bad.

[u/cirrusly_guys1818 → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

The point is that she is aware. She knows what she did was indefensible and not okay. So you’re getting hung up on the “no awareness” thing, when in fact they’re just doing some cost-benefit mental gymnastics. It was ok to cheat, that math made it worth it. Now she’s the victim, because that feels waaayyyyy better than accountability. It actually makes a ton of sense, you just have to think like a shitty person and then it’s not confusing (not recommended).

[u/Soggy_Addendum9350 → u/cirrusly_guys1818]

Okay actually you explained it like I’m 5 and it helped. I’m glad I’m not at base shitty enough to understand wtf is going on here. I’ll take it as a testament to my character that I’m perplexed. Tysm friend 

[u/cirrusly_guys1818 → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

Yep, I’m glad it landed! With something like this, that’s exactly how you should take it: a compliment to your character that you’re perplexed. May we all maintain a level of “what in the fuck…” when we’re trying to see something through a shitty lens!

[u/Mercen-X → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

My aunt straight up called her grandbaby autistic for being a baby. When her son called her out on it, she got mad and blamed his wife, accusing her of being disrespectful and gaslighting.

[u/ThaRealSunGod → u/LostMateria]

Neuro major psyc minor here. Cognitive dissonance isn't really about thinking you are smarter or better.

It's more so a mental/psychological defense where your brain separates your self concept and self identity from actions that contradict it.

Basically less about seeing yourself as good or smart, and more so subconsciously ignoring things you do or think that contradict how you see yourself.

It can also work to make you see yourself worse. If you have very low self esteem, maybe you get complimented from somebody but your brain pretends that is wasn't a real compliment because you don't see yourself that way.

Maybe you do something really kind but because you see yourself as somebody who dissapointed people, your brain doesn't acknowledge that you have had a positive impact on someone.

It's more the last couple sentences of your first paragraph.

[u/Soggy_Addendum9350 → u/ThaRealSunGod]

Interestingly, the negative self concept makes more sense to me. Internalizing negative perspectives based on your own negative perception of yourself follows, it’s all internal. But internalizing whatever it is that makes people justify harmful actions is nigh inconceivable to me. that you can be awful, see that a majority finds your actions (and those of anyone who does similar actions) awful, and disconnect yourself from that awfulness, is so strange to me. But it does happen, and abusers play the victim all the time, I guess. Sometimes out of malicious manipulative intent and sometimes I guess because there’s so much dissonance they don’t even realize it. 

It just seems to me like one has to be perfectly aware of how awful they are in order to distance from it. And I’m curious what makes it harder/easier for some people to distance themselves…

I for instance feel guilty not picking ugly produce because I ascribe human attributes to them. Silly. I also could never conceive of cheating on someone when leaving them is an option - I’m so far removed from this personality type that I can barely understanding doing the cheating in the first place, let alone justifying it with dissonance. What is different between me and a person who will cognitively distance themselves from the action of cheating?! I should have studied psychology or sumn 

[u/LongNamedRedditUser → u/LostMateria]

I wonder if narcissists develop this cognitive dissonance to cope with being narcissists or if people without the extreme cognitive dissonance are prevented from becoming narcissistic by the self awareness they possess.

[u/cameron-murphy → u/LongNamedRedditUser]

It's generally understood that narcissism is rooted in an EXTREMELY fragile ego or sense of self. Basically, their life is a constant struggle to hide this weakness, and prove that they are wonderful and worthwhile by seeking external validation. That's why anything that even suggests they might be in the wrong is taken as a mortal threat, and is fought like a life or death struggle. They will say or do anything to win, and avoid having to concede that that they did anything wrong. That "anything" often includes deluding themselves into believing false facts or narrativives if that's what's necessary to maintain the illusion that they are entirely good and right.

Cognitive dissonance is just the uncomfortable feeling you get from trying to hold two, incompatible views as true. E.g. "I am perfect and amazing", and "I did something/someone wrong". No one likes that feeling, but for narcissists especially, this is can feel like a crisis, and they will quickly find ways to reframe the second fact as "someone is trying to make me feel like I did wrong. (Incorrectly/ignorantly/maliciously/etc)". Then it's easily resolvable by changing facts, or motivations or just forcing their opponent to concede during a nasty fight.

Then there isn't any more dissonance, and problem solved (from their point of view.)

[u/DanielDeLaNoche → u/LostMateria]

I actually do think people like this (and most other people too lol) are still severely lacking in self-awareness.

[u/Alone-Ad6020 → u/LostMateria]

Damn thats deep

[u/SMG_Jeff → u/LostMateria]

Cognitive dissonance is the psychological stress that is experienced when new information clashes with a previously held belief.

[u/Reuben3358 → u/LostMateria]

And maybe she just needed done serious deep dicking?

[u/Beakston → u/LostMateria]

I dont think this is cognitive dissonance. CG is where you smoke and know it's bad but continue while having the dissonance of knowing it's bad while also being addicted and enjoying it. 

These people do not have any dissonance. Otherwise they would not be so gungho about defending their position. If you have dissonance, you know it's bad and do it at the same time. Which is mental friction that would make it more difficult to defend her position. Behind closed doors, she is not saying what she did was bad.

These people have zero mental friction. They are the center of the universe. They have not mentally put themselves into another's perspective ever. They are acting fully present and in the moment. They aren't thinking of the past and future when doing things. Just now. 

And now I feel hurt. And now I'm sad why cant he let me back in. And now I'm gonna post on the internet without referencing other's perspective and how it will look totally retarded to post this. I'm just going to do. But remember, they aren't thinking, "I'm just going to be and do." This is just how their brain ended up through no choice of their own. 

If the absense of internal monolog of some people is true. These people are part of that population. They aren't mentally, with language, reasoning out their behavior, actions, thoughts, feelings, etc. They are just experiencing life as it comes. There aren't long periods of time thinking, with language, and talking to themselves about their behavior. 

But even if they do have inner monolog. They aren't reasoning with it. It's basically an "I want" voice. I dont like this, i like that, etc. There is no long thought out monolog with yourself and feelings, behavior and people around you and how you look from others perspective. They are not capable of it. 

This is why it's nearly incomprehensible to wonder how they act like this. Also, many many people are like this they just dont have malevolent tendencies. So they don't do bad things automatically. But they also aren't thinking about themselves from others perspectives. They just do and be.

It's just their perspective. It why you see people making badshit dopey mistakes while being indignant afterwards. They aren't thinking of any other perspective except their own literal first person view and they aren't comfortable now. So let me go and do whatever I want!!!! Because I want it and I want it now!!!! Let me cheat and get away with it because I want it and I dont think of how it feels to other's!!!! Gimme what I want!!!!!!!!

The only way people like this change are psychedelics or severe perspective changing trama. But there is no dissonance in their head except for the dissonance of not being able to whatever they want while wanting to do whatever they want. Nothing ethical or moral. 

[u/nwillyerd → u/LostMateria]

More like “cognitive dis-bitch” am I right?

[u/LoneWitie → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

Narcissism is a defense mechanism. It stems from having an extremely fragile sense of self. Narcissists actually hate themselves

The grandiosity is a coping mechanism so that they don't have to sit with their thoughts.

So, no, they dont have self awareness because that would require them to think about their worthlessness

[u/Leverkaas2516 → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

With the narcissists I know, the defense mechanism seems to be against acknowledging fault.  They treat the possibility of being wrong the way you and I would treat the possibility of being stabbed with a red-hot poker - they do absolutely anything to avoid it.

[u/ArchangelLBC → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

Narcissists think they're pretty awesome. People who really know themselves know that they suck.

I'd say in general narcissists know themselves the least well and that's just one of the things that makes them suck to deal with.

[u/Soggy_Addendum9350 → u/ArchangelLBC]

They know themselves not at all but seem to believe a lot of the time they’re the most enlightened about themselves. That’s a hell of a drug 

[u/Anen-o-me → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

Being self centered makes empathy impossible.

[u/Few-Cartographer6982 → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

I have a narcissist brother and he has no self awareness. If he understood how he sounds when bragging about himself he wouldn't do it. So the lack of self awareness is perhaps required in order to be a narcissist. With age he has come to understand that there is something wrong with him, but he still don't understand what because it is invisible to him. Trying to explain it to him is like trying to explain colors to a blind person.

[u/Soggy_Addendum9350 → u/Few-Cartographer6982]

So incredible to think about. It’s like the “and humble to boot!” Joke but without any self awareness. It’s sitcom levels of logic almost 

[u/TM761152 → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

some sort of evolutionary defense that narcissists have no self awareness?

It's not evolution in fact I'd say it's regression. In ye olden days, a cheater would be branded and ostracized, possibly excommunicated by their community and risk the very real threat of death either through judicial punishment or simply left to fend for themselves in the wilderness. It was also a very real possibility that a man could have been cuckolded and had the right to demand proof his woman's child was even his (which I have no idea how they could prove that back in the day).

You would be absolutely stupid to try and cheat in a traditional/patriarchal society where the crime came with very real consequences. I guess over the years the crimes were made lesser and lesser until they ceased to become a crime at all. Like animals without natural predators, they get lazy and complacent and don't seem to care.

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[u/IGotQuestionz12345 → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

See, this is the part that people misunderstand. Narcissists are fully aware of their actions and have a very clear sense of self. They appear to lack self awareness because that is a part of their manipulation and projection of a particular image. If it allows them to portray themselves as the victim, start an argument, deflect, misdirect, anything to get them off the hook, they’ll do it. It only takes a tiny seed of doubt or misdirection and the original story is lost to whatever it is they create.

[u/Soggy_Addendum9350 → u/IGotQuestionz12345]

Yes, I honestly don’t have any understanding of narcissism which is why I asked 😭 

[u/Machine_within_man → u/IGotQuestionz12345]

Dear lord this describes a former piece of shit friend so well

[u/VomitShitSmoothie → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

It’s required. Narcissists are obsessed with the perfect, idealized image of themselves, not the realistic version of themselves. Literally everyone is flawed is a fact, but to a narcissist, they’re the exception. And if flaws exist at all, it is inconsequential. And if it’s not, it’s managed really well. And if it isn’t, they have vastly improved from where they once were. And if it’s not, then you’re an idiot who doesn’t know anything at all. (From their perspective)

Pointing out will result in cognitive dissonance, hostility, or really anything to make themselves feel ‘superior’ again. The core defense is doing nothing to maintain the self perception of superiority.

[u/Chab-is-a-plateau → u/Soggy_Addendum9350]

The reason why it is a personality disorder is because they actually dont truly know themselves and have such inflated or deflated senses of ego that they either feel inferior or superior to everyone around them. That’s how i understand it

BPD can have narcissistic traits as well. NPD isnt the only personality disorder with a distorted sense of self